Ep. 67: Mental Training in the NBA from the Inside Out with Brady Howe

In this episode, we're thrilled to have Brady Howe, Vice President of Health and Performance for the NBA's Phoenix Suns, to discuss enhancing athlete performance holistically. Tim begins the episode with a brief mindfulness practice, and then we chat with Brady about his journey and experiences in the NBA and the importance of collaboration among physical and mental/psychological specialists.   

Social Media Mentioned:

Twitter: @mindfulsportdoc

Instagram: @mindful_sport_podcast,  @mspe_institute, @mindfulsportdoc, @bhowe6

YouTube: Mindful Sport Performance Podcast

Websites Mentioned:

www.mindfulsportperformance.org

www.enduromind.com

Books Mentioned

Mindful Sport Performance Enhancement

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Very much appreciated, 

Keith, Tim, and Taylor 

Transcript

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Keith Kaufman 0:11

Hi and welcome back to the Mindful Sport Performance Podcast . I'm Dr Keith Kaufman , I'm Dr Tim Pino and we are very excited to be joined today by Brady Howe . Brady Howe has been with the Phoenix Sun since 2018 and began serving in the role of Vice President of Health and Performance since the 2021-2022 season .

Keith Kaufman 0:33

In his role , he's tasked with overseeing the Sun's health and performance , including the medical team , the performance team , sports science team and nutritional components , all with the goal of optimizing performance while ensuring long-term player health . Brady recently served with the Suns as their head strength and conditioning coach , slash assistant athletic trainer in 2018-2019 . Brady joined the Suns following one season as assistant athletic trainer with the Atlanta Hawks and prior to joining the Hawks , he spent three seasons with the G-League affiliate of the Utah Jazz . He was also the athletic trainer for the NBA D-League Select Team at NBA Summer Leagues in 2015 and 2016 in Las Vegas , and also served as an athletic trainer , strength and conditioning coach for the D-Leagues Utah Flash from 2009 to 2011 . So quite an impressive background in basketball and the NBA . Brady is a graduate of Weber State with a bachelor's in athletic training , and he holds a master's in sports conditioning and performance from Southern Utah University . So thank you so much , Brady , for joining us today . We're really , really excited to pick your brain a little bit and talk with you about your experiences .

Brady Howe 1:50

Wow , thank you for having me , first and foremost . And then I didn't know you were going to read the entire thing . That goes sometimes too far back . I feel like to realize how many times I've bounced around . But yeah , thank you for having me .

Keith Kaufman 2:06

Yeah , well , you did In full disclosure . You sent me a bio . I felt like it didn't do you total justice . I had done a little bit of homework before and just found your bio online and I was like I want to share some of this other stuff . He's got quite an extensive background , so hopefully it was okay for me to go into some of those depths , just because I think it's relevant and want everyone to know how experienced and credentialed you are .

Tim Pineau 2:27

Right , yeah , You're really talking about it here , right ?

Brady Howe 2:31

Oh , thank you Absolutely . I mean , it's just the journey , right , like we all come from a long journey . So I realize now , after you hear it every once in a while , that my goodness , how many places have I been , how many relationships have I built , and so , yeah , I just I wasn't expecting that one to come out today . So it's not just a reminder , it was just a reminder .

Keith Kaufman 2:53

Yeah , awesome . Well , we look very forward to picking your brain on some interesting questions today . But before we go into that , tim , you wanted to lead us in a very brief practice how we like to start our episodes , just to kind of get us in the headspace for chatting .

Tim Pineau 3:09

Yes , yeah , let's all just take a moment to be here to get centered . So , everyone listening , if it's available to you to find a way to come to stillness and , yeah , if you can let your eyes close . What I wanted to introduce is something I like to think of as kind of a meditation hack . We're often asked to center our attention somewhere , maybe our breath . You know , you find a particular point of focus , but that can be kind of ambiguous sometimes , and a practice that I was talking to me a long time ago I really liked just . I mean , invite everyone to lick the tip of your forefinger and touch the spot between your eyes . Just moisten that spot between your eyes , sometimes called our third eye . You can let your eyes close , let your hands rest on your lap , sitting nice and tall .

Tim Pineau 4:14

Bring your attention to the feeling of evaporation . It's likely that spot on your forehead feels a bit cooler than the skin around it . Perhaps you can't even sense the skin around it , but that spot you just touched may be sticking out in your attention . Let your breath find a natural rhythm . No need to make it any deeper or slower than it is right now . Just watching this spot , perhaps watching with interest and curiosity .

Tim Pineau 5:19

Sure , some of you understand the science behind evaporation . What's happening on your skin right now , in this moment . If you can appreciate that process with a sense of awe , wonderful , though if it's a bit too distracting to get into the weeds , just see if you can step back from explaining what's happening and simply be with it , just seeing what arises in the stillness , again and again , as many times as you need . If you like doing this on your own , you can sit and watch that spot all the way until it disappears . There's no more differentiation between that spot and the rest of the skin on your forehead , though , for right now , choose to start to bring our attention back first into the rest of your body , points of contact between your body and the world around you . Your feet on the floor , your hips in the chair , feeling some sounds . What's happening around you , maybe wiggling fingers and toes , feeling some movement , knowing you feel ready .

Keith Kaufman 8:07

Open your eyes , we'll come to our conversation .

Brady Howe 8:12

Thanks , Tim Appreciate that .

Keith Kaufman 8:19

Yeah , Brady , right before we signed on and did this practice , I know we had started to chat just a little bit about maybe what we would talk about today . I know Tim has been eager to ask you this particular question . Maybe this is a good place for us to start . We were very fortunate that we got to know you a little bit recently . You attended our MSP instructor training . For people who like to listen to our podcast , you probably have heard us say many times that us taking a more mindful based approach . We tend to look at things very holistically . That's a big part of what we talk about in our instructor training . Tim , I guess you wanted to ask this . You had a bit of a follow-up question for Brady . Given the work that he does , I'll turn it over to you . Sure , yeah .

Tim Pineau 9:04

We're just diving in . That's awesome . I like that . Well , we do talk about this holistic perspective and really prioritizing wellness , because I think we believe a well athlete , a happy athlete , is going to perform better . Of course , and in my work with college athletes , sometimes what ends up being , quote unquote best for the athlete is to even step away from the sport . Sometimes that's what their wellness requires . There's one thing if you're thinking about D3 college athletes not on a scholarship who can step away from a team , but someone in a system like the MBA , where millions of dollars are at stake , where they spent perhaps decades getting to that point the idea of prioritizing their wellness , such that even to the point where you might suggest like , hey , maybe it's time to take a step back I find myself so curious in those systems , is that a compatible philosophy ? Is it possible to really prioritize athlete wellness in that way when so much else feels like it's involved ?

Brady Howe 10:13

Wow , it's a great question that is hard to unpack . It's an entirety , so it depends on the situation . I think , just going back to the one , just the very brief practice we just did to the place in this world that I'm currently in is being introduced to mindfulness , being introduced to such a powerful component of the mindful side , the mental skills , and just that side of athletics , which is the world I operate in , for these athletes , for these coaches and the staff that I work so very closely with . None of us are different in that realm . Right , we have to walk this life and we have to live this journey Isolated , in the sense that you're born with this yourself and you're gonna end with yourself , and so , for me , I have taken a very deep path recently down this route of figuring out what is mindfulness , what is this component that a lot of us are we're just skipping over . We know that it's important . I think , to answer to your question again , it depends . It's so .

Brady Howe 11:37

Many of us are in different phases in our lives where , as we were touching on a little earlier , it can be An aspiring athlete who doesn't play anything past middle school or high school , which is , I gotta say , seventy percent of all athletes , you're not playing any longer than your high school age and that's really hard . You know it's really hard thing to accept it . That dream , those aspirations are over and now what's next ? You know it's . It's the exact same for those who Finish at college . You know , you see the sad stories of senior days are being eliminated in March madness . And you know that every day , gradual fluid and you don't want it to end . Of course we build up these professional athletes like there are models , there are heroes , like what could they ever have to worry about ? And then you realize , every day for them is that feeling where you know you can build up to be a franchise player who are on billboards and shoe deals . Or you know you could have one bad performance and , you don't know , maybe you're sent to the minor leagues or you're just , you know , to retire and it could be an injury and so many scenarios that come to mind .

Brady Howe 12:59

That's Realizes that we are not prepared for this . And it's not just the players , coaches , staff . Sometimes you know , you thought that you had a life in this world of ambitions and you're gonna do these things , and then it's over and People are left being broken down or running into those scenarios of , you know , hitting rock bottom , some will say in their mind , before they realize that there are things you can do , there are Mindful approaches to be prepared for . But , more than anything , the thing that I've loved about your work and mindfulness and everything that I've gone into is just Be present with it , be bring awareness to it , and I think that there's a lot more power in that and people have ever realized or Acknowledge . You know . So , again , this is a long winded answer and I think I can go on forever , which we know , that that's what this is all about , but that for me , it just depends .

Keith Kaufman 14:04

I think that's a great answer and I think it's a fair answer as well . A couple things came to mind real quick , just just as you were responding . One of them is one of the things that fascinates me about you , brady , is obviously , from my read your bio , you come from a physical background right strength and conditioning and athletic training and I know you and I have had a couple of conversations and it sounds like you take very seriously trying to round out , learning about the mental side and I believe you're pursuing your , your CMPC , which is , which is phenomenal and you know , as somebody who's actually putting his money where his mouth is in terms of doing his diligence with the mental side . It's thrilling for us and so clearly you're somebody who sees the value In doing this right and investing in the mental side , and so I guess there's an extension of what you're talking about here .

Keith Kaufman 14:57

I wonder , like do you feel like that's an uphill battle in professional sports ? And maybe that's a different way of asking the same question that Tim was getting at . But I've had the fortune of working in pro sports this season with a team and you know it happens to be a team that's pretty receptive to this kind of thing , but in general , what I've noticed is that there's been a lot of progress in terms of , you know , sports psychologist or sports psychology or even clinical psychology being part of the fold and professional organizations , but maybe not always having the ear Of all the stakeholders or all of the players . You know , it's okay , this is a thing , but but do we actually listen to this person ? Do we actually prioritize wellness in a meaningful way ? And so you seem , and like you're in such a unique position to make such a difference , and so I wonder if you could speak about that , about your own transition to the mental side , from the physical side , and kind of what the receptivity to that has been within the Psalms , within your experience in pro sports .

Brady Howe 15:56

Yeah , I again I guess to tap into your question and , tim's , I do believe there is a very holistic approach and the environment that I live in Is a blessing , you know it's . It's one of those where , at the highest level , you know , the most minute things make a big difference . There is the 1% that makes a competitive edge and when you , when you live and operate in this space , you realize that that's , that's whether you're possibly going to win a championship or not , and you know we're . But I do come from a very different background . You know we talked about this where I kind of use term from the inside out where so many people have had , you know , the aspirations to get into this field of working with athletes and they want to get to a certain position of pro sports or a particular sport or title . I've , I'm blessed to be there and I obviously come from more of a physical route because for me this is just who I am . If I'm going to go down a path , I'm going all the way and you know , maybe that's a good thing . There's obviously some some not so good things about that . With you you're all or nothing .

Brady Howe 17:13

But I've realized that so much of my life has been focused or hyper focused on the physical , whether that's my own experiences of injuries that Limited me from reaching my true potential to surgeries , rehab and everything in between . You know , I'm not the biggest guy in the world . I'm literally to a T on the average male . You know , by standards I'm 510 , 170 pounds , and so I , you know , was able to reach college football status and , but that's a sport I probably shouldn't have been playing . So I go back to some of my own experiences , realizing that I would practice so well and I would do things to make teams I probably shouldn't have been on , and but when it came to the lights around , there were a lot of my own firsthand experiences from performance , anxieties and things that Limited me , and I always just thought that it was a physical element , like I'm not fast enough , strong enough , sharp enough , skilled enough , and . But then there was always the anxiety driven things or the fear , things that I realized now were such a bigger element that I never acknowledged . Why didn't wanna ? I didn't want to accept them , and so , but now you know , maybe , as they say , you get a little wiser and you realize that there are the things .

Brady Howe 18:42

I spent my whole life not only wanting to be an athlete , but now exploring and uncovering what drives athletes , what drives successful teams , and realizing , at the level that I'm Been fortunate to experience , those one percent things matter and I and I kind of now I'm just trying to organize my perspective with working with some of the best athletes and coaches in the world what are some of those things , those competitive advantages , and we spend so much time On the physical and the skills that the technical , the technical but you know , we all know relationship are important . We all know how we conduct ourselves , how we think , and the golden question for us , or for me and this situation of integrating the mental side of things , is how much of the game is mental ? You know you just throw that any coach , any player , and of course I don't know where you're going with this , and it's just like man , a hundred percent , someone say eighty something , whatever number it's gonna be . You , they know that the next question is coming okay , well , how much of your game , your mental game , are you training or integrating with all the physical ? That's what they hate , because they know that question is coming and they know the answer is probably a lot closer to zero , and so I've accepted that from realizing that's what limited me , I realized that that's a big thing , it's limiting all of us , and so I just realized again , coming from the inside out of living in the training room , living in the operating room with you know , like working with doctors , living with physical therapist , everything from the strength conditioning and all the things that I've built up for decades I realized that it's important as they are .

Brady Howe 20:24

There's , there are limiting factors of not integrating the mindful side of things . And and then I realized to the then the NBA and just the higher level sports work , and it is big business , it is high expectations , it is a big production and if you're one of fifteen players let's just say one of five players who are on the court , predominantly , there's millions and millions of eyes on you , of comments being made of you , stories of perceptions , judgments , dollars , so much that that just build this wall of Clouds of judgments , fear and self limiting , things that go on , that it does become much more than just being able to sit down and reflect . This is how I'm feeling , this is what's going on like , this is All these things . So to answer your question , was so much of that going on and how my story is come from , more of wanting to be the athlete and then trying to do everything I can to prepare the athlete . There's this big piece that's missing and for me , that's what I'm spending a lot of my time in now , realizing that it is much more for me than to just enhance performance or to optimize Strengths or to build on weaknesses that the athletes may have , but to just have a field of a feeling , life and a fulfilling experience because we wanna . We wanna build constraints of time or outcomes or stats and dollars and contracts and everything in between .

Brady Howe 21:58

But Sometimes , again , the best conversations I've had that have led me down this path with my athletes past , current they Realize that they're putting way too much stock in those thoughts , past or future , rather than just enjoying , like when you're currently at . And I'm gonna flip it . This is a random one , but one of the questions or statements I love to throw in our players is I want you to close your eyes and vision the 10 year old version of X player and say look at what . Tell them what you've accomplished , tell them where you're at today , tell them what you're experiencing and what would that young athletes say ? They all they're have no idea that . Just be in heaven , right . And now come back to the present . How do you feel today , and Just try to put some things in the perspective that there's so much more about this journey and these opportunities that should be viewed as a blessing , and they're very seldomly they are .

Brady Howe 22:53

There's just so much around us . So , to both of your questions , I think that how can you not want to take that Such a critical like element to put into the equation and to , because it is much more than just performing at a high level ? You know , if you can find a way to truly be mindful and to do some of these skills to put you in a really good frame Of reference , then what's in front of you at that moment ? You're going to give it your best and you're going to accept it . You're going to love it and embrace it .

Brady Howe 23:25

Once the next moment comes , worry about that moment . But so these are things that I'm learning to do in my own life , because I feel like , again , all or nothing you've got to , you've got to walk the walk , talk to talk , and so for me , I'm trying to find ways to Bring some of these skills exercises However you want to turn them out there into action . You know , I don't think that anybody is Too big to do these things . Nobody is too Field , or you name it . I mean these , these simple things are powerful , and I think that they are . They are truly the competitive edge , even at the highest level .

Tim Pineau 24:08

Well , yeah , I feel , like you know , in the reality , like this could end in any moment , you know , and not even this could end . This will end for every single one of those players . It will end . It will . We don't know how , we don't know when , but like it will , you know .

Tim Pineau 24:31

And just there is something I feel like incredibly scary about facing that reality . You know , I'm and people invest so much time and effort and energy to try to make sure it will never end , right . But then I think what you're kind of alluding to is like , well , the more we invest in that , the kind of , the more resources we are wasting , because that's an inevitability , it's not something that we can actually stop or prevent , and so we might as well be here now , because this is our best chance at Actually continuing on and enjoying this and say bring this . I love that , that thought experiment of like , talk to your 10 year old self and just look at how much you've accomplished . Like . But I also recognize how , how hard a pill it is to swallow , right For a lot of these , I'm imagining , for a lot of these players , like , are they receptive to this ? You know , when you're trying to get them to think in this . I would imagine it's really different way , like what kind of resistance do you experience with them ?

Brady Howe 25:30

Yeah , again , the best answer is it always depends , you know , like person , a person , and these are all relationship based . In my mind , it's their relationships I have with some of these things , whether it's a thought , whether it's a Person , whether it's an exercise . So there are players who are very open to these things , whether they've had a hardship , whether they have experienced things that are just there's no other way than to just get through them . And , in the same context , there's players who've gone through similar hardships that are very Distance and they want to isolate themselves from such things because it's just , it's the environments that we've come up through , right and so , but I will say , players , it all depends on those relationships . If you can have a relationship built with them that grows over time , it fosters , it develops into trust , and then you have the right opportunity to present some of these things and thought provoking ideas or things that they would consider . You learn through both of a few interviewing or a lot of other concepts that bring this to the table and at the right time , the right experience . A lot of these players are very open to these things .

Brady Howe 26:46

I've had A lot of valuable experiences with players in During competition that have realized that these things that we've been working on , all I gotta do is kind of give him A certain look , a certain you know , I mean like motion , if you will , to Find your breath momentarily , shut it off , whether it's five seconds or five minutes . And those are the things that I'm finding a lot of value , not just for myself but for everybody . Because Once you can Bottle up all these things that you're experiencing , whether it's an in game or in a hectic situation in life , these are very valuable things that you can always refer to their free , they are what you make of them . But you realize after time that these things can help me , just OK , like let it go and so . But so it always depends .

Brady Howe 27:43

It always depends on the player , the situation , their experience , and it's a never ending process . That's where , once again , don't put a constraint on it . You haven't done a motivation or a Meditation , any of these things , and it's just a one and done . You know you have to kind of continue to remind them . It's no different than the physical aspects that we've touched on , whether it's their skills , whether it's their physical training . This is a nonstop process and that should just be a part of the embrace .

Tim Pineau 28:14

It's yeah something said .

Keith Kaufman 28:18

You know you were talking about yourself being all or nothing , but I mean , actually there's so much nuance to everything that you're saying and to your path . I think there is something really powerful about being I like the way you explain this sort of like inside out right being somebody who does come from a physical background , who has the trust of the players , who's already embedded in the organization and and now this is something that you're trying to bring right as part of as part of the approach there . I know that , like I've talked with a lot of folks who are in similar roles in professional sports . One comes to mind who's working in the NHL right now and he said to me , kind of like off off the record , basically , you know like yeah , I love sports , like , I'm open to sports like , but frankly , when I've had sports like come in , I just haven't seen it make that much of an impact in in this kind of organizational setting . It's like there's all the intention there , it just doesn't get the buy .

Keith Kaufman 29:18

It necessarily and and I think that is not an uncommon experience is that it's it's almost kind of set up in a way to be challenged because , you know , maybe there is a role of a sports psychologist who comes in and maybe certain key stakeholders haven't fully bought in , or maybe that sports psychologist doesn't get full access and so isn't able to offer the full services that he or she is capable of , and and so then that's that's kind of what people believe sports psychology is all about is this sort of limited , limited taste that they get .

Keith Kaufman 29:52

And and here you are , somebody who already has the ear of the player , someone who already has a critical role within a professional sports organization , who's bringing this stuff . That feels really different to me , that feels really refreshing . That's part of what I was so excited to talk to you about today is because , you know , I don't see you as an all or nothing kind of guy . I see you as somebody who's really doing his diligence and saying , hey , I have this great background in physical training and and strength and conditioning , but I also need to do my homework and really cross my T's and dot my eyes with learning about sports psychology and mental skills training , because that's an entirely different subspecialty that that so often in pro sports , I think is still seen as other right , and you are the embodiment of integration . I think that's that's really significant .

Brady Howe 30:45

Yeah , it's again that inside out component . I use that phrase because , again , so many people are trying to get into sports from an outside , working their way into sports , whereas I've been in this and I realized that I had to take a step back to realize that this is such an important thing that should be integrated , that this is this is everybody wants to ask what's the secret ? What are they doing behind ? You know that unveil , that curtain , curtains , and this is just one of those things that I think that the best teams , the best athletes are tapping into , and it's it's just one of many things that come to it . But , to your point , the , the reason I went down this path was because I've always had good relationship with the guys . You know it's . It's like any job you work in . Any job , you're going to connect with some . You're not going to connect you know so well with others . This is just , this is life , and so I started to realize that , even in the role that I've been , you know , we do have team psychiatrists and sports psychologists that we have , I mean , within certain professional sports . It's almost the borderline , blank check . A model approach of life will go get the best . We need the best resources , the best modalities , best facilities . So you start to realize , okay , well , let's , let's do our due diligence and let's bring this staff and these resources so that there is no reason let's limit the excuses of why we can bring the best environment to our teams . And so you're building so much of this production .

Brady Howe 32:18

It is and we joke internally that we work in a traveling service . You know , because you travel , you , you unpack it , you set it up , you play one game and within 24 hours broke it back down . You load it up , you go to the next city . But with so much production going on , it's , it's just , it's a lot to bring together . You know , and as this builds and builds , you know , nowadays players even joke . It's like the almost a three or four to one ratio of coach , like , like skills coaches to player , and so it continues to grow , it continues to evolve . It's not right , not wrong , it's not good or bad , it's just , it's what it is .

Brady Howe 32:58

And with that I noticed that for psychologists and people that come in and they're amazing , I have nothing but admiration for what they do . There's such a valuable skill set and part of our resources . Just like an orthopedic physician is right , guy breaks his bone . Of course that's their specialty . You need to call on them . But that stigma is breaking up quite a bit nowadays and I'm so happy about that . But there's still the experts in that area and there's such a need for them , and not just our team but teams across the board .

Brady Howe 33:35

I network with so many valuable people in football , soccer , baseball that are trying to do this at a high level , and our experience in the same thing you said he's where there's just there . They're not getting the reach or the experience or the I want to say outcomes , because Not getting what you think you would get out of it and there's a number of reasons for that . But I started to realize with my relationships with the guys , in my daily engagement with the guys , whether it's on the table , with treatments , taping , rehab , to you know , lifting in the weight room and everything above and in between . I just started to realize that I want to do a better job of trying to bring this to life and trying to support that staff . But also , how can I keep bringing a beginner's mindset to the players , of educating them and realizing that this is so powerful ? This is going to make you , literally my mind , unstoppable , everything you do , from a skill set and a physical component , you bring in this much of just an inner game , I call it , or the mental game that feels all these things . This is not just for your sport , this is for your life out of sports . This is what's going to set you up .

Brady Howe 34:46

So when sports do and you never want to talk about it , but when it happens , because it will You're in a good place and you know what to do , you know how , you know how to go to these places , that you're going to be okay . And so I just started to realize you know , it's not like I'm here to take their job , I'm here to support them and I just wanted to learn on my own how can I can find more , more enjoyment , fulfillment out of my own daily work , out of , and so as I started to tap into these things , I realized how much I truly enjoyed it and I needed it . I really needed it , and I'm just trying to now do the same thing from the inside out . How do I harness , you know , my daily relationships , but also bring our team of psychiatrist , psychologist and really just support one another to show how valuable they are . And I think , once the players start to realize that there's a lot more reach , because the players oftentimes in sports and we've done this , we have have that staff here every day . They're just a part of the staff .

Brady Howe 35:49

But there's still players that they look at this like , rather than being the strength coach or the team doctor , like why , why is there somebody here , kind of strength in me , and I mean trying to talk to me , or , you know , like the teams , the teams doing something to evaluate me , and that's that's going to hurt my contract status . They're going to think that I'm mentally fragile . I'm not . You know , I'm not confident .

Brady Howe 36:10

All these things where you know the players will sometimes go outside of the team and find their own . You know mental health practitioners , you name it . That's great . I there's no right or wrong , but we're just trying to make sure that we do everything we can to bring that to life . And that's kind of the current path and journey that I've been on , because I just again realized for myself that was a limiting component for me , and not just as an athlete , but as a co worker , as a son , the brother , as a father . These are things that that are just so valuable that how could you not want to bring this into your everyday and your everyday life .

Tim Pineau 36:49

Yeah , I mean , yeah , there is something that feels so powerful about the , about this way of being , about this way of seeing the world . And we , we interviewed John Kevins in a while back and he said something to that effect of , like you know once , even if it takes a while , you know once , people get a , get a taste of this like they don't . They don't want to go back to looking at these different parts of their life as siloed , right , it's like as so . I mean , we use the word independence often as a really , as a really good thing . Like you want to be independent , but the reality is no one and nothing is independent . We're all . Everything is interdependent , right , and every single answer you give into , even from your response to your bio , it's like about relationships . You know , we're reflecting on all the man , all the relationships I built . Like everything is about relationships .

Tim Pineau 37:40

I just like love hearing that , because it feels like so , so aligned with , I think , the philosophy of mindfulness and this idea that you know nothing stands alone by itself . Even that orthopedic surgeon , right , like well , guess what ? Your nutrition plays a role in how your bone is going to heal ? Right , like your mental and emotional state is going to going to play a role in how motivated you are to do the PT that you're going to need to act .

Tim Pineau 38:06

It's like it's all connected and to think that that right , and I think that the stigma piece of the mental health , like to think that's somehow separate , like oh , yeah , I see the strength and conditioning coach and I see the PT and that all makes sense to me . Oh , but this mental thing is so outside and they're just evaluating me and that's somehow negative . Like no , can we bring that under the umbrella too and see , like actually it's all of a piece , it all needs to work together to have someone like you , kind of from the inside , kind of really emphasizing that coming from these trusting relationships right , I really love that . Like it's not a binary of like oh , either they're receptive to this or they're not . Like no , in the context of a trusting relationship , that's going to make someone more receptive to maybe a really challenging idea or to see things differently . That's just such an important message to get out there .

Brady Howe 38:58

Yeah , absolutely , absolutely . I mean it has to be a part of it . I mean this , looking at even the separation of your questions , holistic versus what you want , whatever you want to term it . You know Western medicine and all these things like this . There's so much of a bridge and interconnectedness to it all and I sometimes use that reference too .

Brady Howe 39:18

Like you absolutely can't do anything physical without knowing how your brain works and knowing how thoughts work and how your you know motivation , confidence or lack thereof , all these things like to go through these . You know to work on the dexterity of the skill sets they do , and it's all connected and we don't want to think about it . And I do believe there's a lot of it that people don't want to think about it because it's not objective . You can't quantify these things of saying , oh well , I want to get bigger , faster , stronger , more skilled , I want to become more efficient at three point shooting , I want to have my first dump . You can put a physical , objective thing that we've just accepted as a normal thing today that okay , well , I know how to do that .

Brady Howe 40:06

I want bigger arms . I know I got to go do curls , but when it comes to the other side , okay , I want to get more confidence . Okay , how do I do that ? I mean , most people just say go get more confident , go read some self-help books and get some motivation . You know , like it's just I , so even for me , I just how do I find some valuable resources that point people in a direction to realize that if these are the things that you value and are important to you , this is going to take you down a much further path of just life than it will be in performance , and that it will coincide with anything physical that you believe in .

Keith Kaufman 40:49

We'll have to talk about this another time because I know we're running short here and I want to be respectful of your schedule , brady , but I love what you're saying and actually my the thing that I'm geeking out on the most now in sports psych is exactly what you said trying to make this stuff more tangible , because I was like , ooh , we should talk about how well , actually , mindfulness is something that you can measure and you can measure some of the physiological changes that happen with mindfulness practice and you know , that's that's really something that I'm really excited about in terms of maybe future directions of our MSBE work and mindfulness in general , because I think you're spot on . I think that that is going to be such a big part , hopefully , of ultimately overcoming some of the stigma is making this as tangible as possible and demonstrating through data and through hard , hard information that they can see , that they can touch that . Oh , that's what confidence means . Oh , okay , when I practice this , that's what changes , you know , and I am hopeful , I'm optimistic , I think , as you said , you explained it so well I think there has been so much more openness and I think the sports psychologists have become a part of that entourage you were describing before the traveling circus .

Keith Kaufman 42:04

I think it just takes people like you , who are these insiders , who who already have the relationships and can really show what this can really do . I think once people see that and there's some data to back that up , I really think that's going to be the next evolution of our field . I think that's going to be huge . So I just want to thank you for all of your work and I know this isn't why you do what you do , but the ambassador for sports psych that you're becoming , I think it's it's actually really , really critical to our field it's been a wonderful introduction for me to explore this and realize that it's an absolute need and it's not all bad People want to put that , oh , I don't need that , something's wrong with me , like .

Brady Howe 42:46

No , it's the complete opposite . When you can spin it and realize this might be exactly what pushes you into your personal flow state . You know , I'm not saying that flow has to be you literally tapped into Kobe Bryant mentality , like it could be . What is flow for you in this moment ? That and I'm just realizing that it's that we all need , that . We all need that . So it's been an absolute joy to through that class of mindfulness class that I had , as Michael is my professor and we were obviously using your book and your work , which is just I'm very appreciative of , which is why I had to reach out and kind of give that sense of gratitude and then , obviously , just again for me , like if I , if I need to know it , then I'm going to go down that path and I'm going all in to try to figure out how I can maximize that and how I can spread it to others . That's awesome .

Keith Kaufman 43:41

Well , I know , as we sign off here , you know you are also starting a podcast . So if you want to take a moment and plug that and also , you know , for folks who want more information about you , any , any ways that they can be in touch , social media , that kind of thing , anything you want to share , please , please , feel free .

Brady Howe 43:59

Yeah , obviously we have haven't done anything that's that's launched just yet . It's been kind of a conversation and passion project in the making to talk about certain things such as this , just life and sport , and so that's , that's on the horizon . You know , that's something that we're kind of biting into a little bit more . Co host of mine . But I think that I'm probably the most active on social media Instagram . I mean , I'm not a big social media person , but if anybody was trying to find me or reach out , it would be Instagram , which I believe my handle is just be . How be h o w e sticks ? I said I even be honest about that , and the other will just saying you know , back in the day , my younger sister , who's a graphic designer , just said you have to be on this and set me up . And here I am . So I'm like said definitely not big on that , I don't live in that world .

Brady Howe 44:55

I have it and people want to reach out .

Tim Pineau 44:58

Also not on social media . I know I'm watching .

Keith Kaufman 45:01

I'm watching Tim Laughy is like yep , I know exactly what you're talking about . So well , I'll take I'll take one moment and plug our social media , since our podcast is is on some social media if you want to want to connect with us . So we are also on Instagram . Our podcast . You can follow it at mindful underscore sport underscore podcast . We also have a YouTube channel that you're welcome to visit where we post all of our exercises that begin our episodes .

Keith Kaufman 45:28

So we'll post the episode that Tim led today and that's a great free meditation library for anybody who's interested in experiencing a bunch of exercises from wonderful people from all around the world who have , who have led these on our podcast . Also , our MSP Institute has an online presence . You can find our website at wwwmindfulsportperformanceorg and we also have an Institute Instagram page and Facebook page and you can find me , dr Keith Kaufman . I am on Instagram and also on Twitter , slash X , I guess we can say now , and my handle is at mindful sport doc , and our book is still out there mindful sport performance enhancement mental training for athletes and coaches , which , brady , you are kind enough to plug for us . We appreciate that and so we always appreciate any , any ratings and your reviews that you'd like to give our book or our podcast . So thank you again to to everyone who listened . Oh , and I should take a second and thank our wonderful producer , taylor Brown , and our colleague Carol glass for all the first support of our podcast behind the scenes . And now thank everybody who , who ?

Keith Kaufman 46:34

listened and thank you so much , brady , for joining us today . I'd love to continue this conversation sometime . I feel like we just scratched the surface in terms of picking your brain on some of this stuff , so maybe you can come back on again and join us . But thank you so much for your time today .

Brady Howe 46:48

Yeah , absolutely . I mean , like to your point , I feel like we can . I could just talk and talk and talk about this forever hours until I realize I'm just rambling , but I had a great time and I double back . I also wanted to make the point , you know , of Tim kind of leading the brief sessions to begin Me myself learning how to do that at a much higher level . I think to your point , the resources you guys have in your library , from guided meditation to that's a great starting point that I just want to advocate for that because it's myself trying to learn how to enter that space . A lot of times people will grow from others and aren't naturally just inclined to just build their own personal meditative space and just something that follow and it takes time . So I wanted to make that point with Tim leading that today , because that's something that I think people need to hear so that there's not an awkwardness this just find what works for you and I do think that the resources you guys have are very helpful .

Keith Kaufman 47:45

Thank you , that means a lot . We appreciate that very much .

Brady Howe 47:49

Thank you for having me .