Ep. 66: Mindful Leadership in Pro Soccer with Aidan Rocha

What does it take to execute and lead effectively amidst the pressures of a game? Join us as we explore these questions with our guest, American professional soccer player Aidan Rocha.

This episode is a deep dive into the science and art of mental preparation in elite sport. Aidan shares his pre-game routine, the mental practices he picked up during his time at Georgetown University, and how he uses mindfulness to enhance his performance at the pro level. He also describes how he creates emotional space, embodies positivity, and crafts his leadership style. And, how Eastern philosophy has influenced his approach to soccer and life.

The episode wraps up with a discussion on how intensity, mindfulness, and leadership go hand-in-hand within a pro sports team, and Aidan gives us an insider's view of how it all can come together. So, whether you're an athlete, coach, sport psychologist, or a die-hard sports fan, this episode promises to deliver valuable insights and a fresh perspective on mental aspects of professional sport.

Social Media Mentioned:

Twitter: @mindfulsportdoc

Instagram: @mindful_sport_podcast,  @mspe_institute, @mindfulsportdoc, @aidanrochaa

YouTube: Mindful Sport Performance Podcast

Websites Mentioned:

www.mindfulsportperformance.org

www.enduromind.com

Books Mentioned

Mindful Sport Performance Enhancement

Remember to rate and support our podcast, and subscribe to our YouTube Channel! 

Very much appreciated, 

Keith, Tim, and Taylor 

Transcript

Keith: 0:11

Hi and welcome back to the Mindful Score Performance podcast. I'm Dr Keith Kaufman, I'm Dr and we are really excited to be joined today by Aiden Rocha. Aiden is a professional soccer player with Loudoun United of the USL Championship. He's a Montgomery County, Maryland native who has played previously for OBGC, the Thesda Academy and then Georgetown University, where his teams won four Big East regular season titles, two Big East championships, had Elite A and Final Four appearances and a 2019 National Championship.

Keith: 0:47

Aiden was the captain of the team the 2022 season and he was also part of the Georgetown skateboarding club, which I didn't know you were in a skateboarding. That was pretty cool to say. Additionally, Aiden was a highly decorated wrestler, winning three DC city championships, two WCAC conference championships and making three national prep school championship appearances, serving as captain in 2018 and 2019, while at St John's College High School, and so, for any listeners who are outside of the DC area, St John's is a very well known athletic powerhouse across the board, so to have been that successful is quite notable. So congrats on all your success, Aiden. Your bio is quite impressive and we're really thrilled to have you on our podcast. Thank you for making the time.

Aidan: 1:35

Thank you guys for having me. It's an honor.

Keith: 1:38

So, as we often like to do at the beginning of our episodes, we're just going to start with a very brief practice, which Tim is going to lead us in, and then we'll transition into chatting with Aiden a bit.

Tim: 1:49

Yeah. So for today's, today's practice, I was going to lead us in a very brief breathing meditation with a Gatha. I think we may have done a Gatha once or twice here on the on the pod. Basically, it's just a short, short poem that you kind of pair with your breath as a way to help get centered while you're meditating. And this particular one I wrote thinking about what kind of Gatha someone might want to do right before a competition. So I'll invite everyone, if it is available to you, to come to stillness and let your eyes close, Check in with your posture, Set your body up, whether you're standing, sitting or lying down, to allow the breath to come in and out with ease. Maybe roll your shoulders up and back, feeling that straight, direct spine, allowing the diaphragm to move freely. Put your breath, settle into a natural rhythm and then simply listen along or even internally say along with me these words Breathing in my mind is alert.

Tim: 3:38

Breathing out, my body is calm. Breathing in my mind is focused. Breathing out, my muscles are ready. Breathing in, I trust my training. Breathing out, I feel my preparation. Breathing in, I know what I have to do. Breathing out, I remember I have done this many times. Breathing in, I balance effort and ease. Breathing out, my heart is full. Breathing in, I am grateful for my body and mind Breathing out. I will savor this experience. Take a few more breaths, letting those words sink in. Whenever you feel ready, open your eyes and come back to the room.

Keith: 5:30

Awesome. Thank you, tim, appreciate that. I don't know if we have done this before on the podcast. I can't remember if you have actually done a poem like that. That was pretty neat.

Tim: 5:42

I had this big, big memory of maybe in season one. It was like reaching away back.

Aidan: 5:50

That was incredible. You call that an agatha.

Tim: 5:56

Agatha yeah. I don't call that it's a thing. In Sanskrit it means verse or poem. I came upon these in the tradition of Zen, Buddhism and Tignan Han he. In leading meditations he often uses these gathas. They could be anything Breathing in, I smile, Breathing out, I relax those invoking. I like to think of it almost like.

Aidan: 6:31

Buddhist self-talk. That was great. That ties right into how I feel before games, centering the mind and then the body, and how they almost feel separate. But we have to go together at some point. That was great.

Tim: 6:45

Yeah, maybe that's a great segue. Yeah.

Aidan: 6:49

I feel like it.

Keith: 6:53

Yeah, you and I didn't have gotten to know each other this year. It's been such a privilege. You've always impressed me in terms of your knowledge and your mindset and how seriously you take your psychology and this mind-body connection. Maybe you could say a little more about that, about how you get ready for competition and to get yourself where you want to be.

Aidan: 7:16

Yeah, sure, I guess I'll go ahead and piggyback off of the exercise we just did. That was great. I would love a recording of that right before, keith, as you've seen me sitting in our locker right before games. That's kind of the time period where, for all of us, we center ourselves before we take the pitch, before our event starts. We have about 40 minutes to do so there. In those moments I haven't really been able to put words to it. But, tim, what you just said kind of did it for me.

Aidan: 7:55

For me personally, I like to very much relax my body and kind of often if I find myself a little too anxious or jumpy, I'm oftentimes up walking, doing too many things or stretching a little too much. Then, when it comes closer to stepping on the field, I like to just sit and relax. That is also paired with my mind being focused and ready. I'm composed, I'm very aware of what's going on, but I look almost as though I'm not laxadaisical but calm, as if I'm not about to go play for 90 minutes in intense sport. I've tried to adapt that for a long time now, but it's been a process, as you can imagine, over the past, since I was five, since I started playing sports.

Keith: 8:53

You've had a long career already, wow.

Aidan: 8:55

Yeah, I feel like it.

Tim: 8:57

Yeah Well, yeah, I just listened to you talk about that. It just makes me think about individualized it is someone to find their level of arousal. I remember this on my high school and college crew teams all the different ways that people would pump up or try to calm down. I just remember my buddy Benji would always listen to Aretha Franklin on his head, so he needed it before. It was just like just to get you in that headspace, but right to really fine tune your body too. I had a lot of guys on my team who really wanted to get pumped up, pumped up and that never felt right in my body. I was like no, I feel like I need to be a little bit calmer. I judged it at the time because in comparison, I was like oh should I be getting amped up?

Tim: 9:50

But I think my body responded better when I started at a much calmer place. But, like you're saying, it's not like I was ready to go to sleep, like my mind felt sharp, but just I felt better if my body was really really still.

Aidan: 10:05

That's really interesting, especially for me to hear, because, as Keith said, I grew up wrestling too, so my process has been kind of like mashed up a little bit and I've at times honestly not until this past season started. This season I've kind of found a good process for me to get ready for games and I've realized now that what works best for me is not pumping myself up too much, getting too amped up, as I used to do, and for me now it's a much more calm, relaxed state, but with preparation of course. But yeah, I think music was a big part of that for me too, when you talk about pumping up, amping up, getting ready or calming down, I grew up listening to hard rock music and heavy metal music. My dad is a huge 2000s, 90s rock band, so I have a CD collection I'm looking at right here. My record collection is right there.

Aidan: 11:11

But I grew up listening to all that stuff from Black Sabbath, who knows what, and I would get super amped up for wrestling matches and wrestling practice and I would often lead over to soccer where I'd want to be just as amped up. And only this past season I realized that I think I do better listening to Equalia, stefan or someone very, very calm and soothing before, and I like where I'm at after that. So I'm glad you brought that up. I like that a lot.

Tim: 11:44

Yeah, it's so interesting. I think preparing for a three minute wrestling match is probably so different. Definitely 90 minute soccer game. It's like your body needs to do something very different, so you might need different levels of arousal there.

Aidan: 12:00

Yeah.

Keith: 12:02

And that's what always blows my mind. So much too, about the mental game, and I know we've come so far in recent years in terms of athletes getting exposure to sports psychology and the importance of the mental game and what are some practices to do. But just the amount of refinement that's needed, not only as an individual but across sports, how different do you want to be mentally when you're going to wrestle versus when you're going to play soccer? You know it seems like a completely different level of arousal is what you would need to achieve in order to be your most successful. And how do you know that? Unless that's something that you've trained, unless it's something that you've practiced Right and it just it's fascinating to me.

Keith: 12:46

So, obviously you're saying music and you have no idea how glad I am to hear you say that. First of all, you know what a CD is. That's good, but also like the music that you listen to, because I know I've made some references with our team Aiden and a lot of them go right over the head. I've never felt so old, so the fact that you know Black Sabbath, that made my afternoon. This is great.

Tim: 13:14

I grew up with grunge like, oh, so good yeah.

Keith: 13:20

What I mean. Music is a great one, not that you need to do something more, but I'm curious, like what other? What other techniques have you used or do you use just to kind of get yourself in that right zone of arousal for you, for your soccer, I guess, like you do skateboarding to, or when you would wrestle like what, what, what would you recommend to folks out there?

Aidan: 13:39

Sure, well, I'll speak on what I'm doing now and what is working for me thus far. I think it does change based on your setting and where you're at. I was at Georgetown for the past four years, so my resources and facilities look different there than they do here, and so I think that should be taken to an account, for people is what you have at your disposal, and I'm very grateful to say that I've had like some very nice places to be able to practice and prepare for my sport. But for me, I think I guess the short rundown would be on game days, especially when I want to be at peak performance. I go in early to the facility and I stretch. I do very methodical relax, stretching on a yoga mat, rolling out. I do that for man. I give myself about an hour just to be able to relax, and sometimes I'll lay down on my phone on the map for a little bit, or I'll prop my head up and just turn some music on and like tap my feet for a little bit and then I start. But I give myself an hour and I'll maybe stretch for like 20 minutes, but it's just like the state of being getting to my place where I need to be settling in, relaxing, and I get to prepare for the game, so I stretch. We have our meal, of course, so I think especially like adding something like that where it's social and speaking with other people and that's great, and then once it gets closer to game time, I do.

Aidan: 15:19

I like to practice with my own breathing techniques, which are very simple. There's there's nothing much to it and I don't even know if I have a name to it, but I like to be mindful of my breath before games. I can recognize when I'm a little overwhelmed when I'm mouth breathing. At Georgetown I was awoken to the importance of nose breathing and I realized how much that works for me, whether it's in the classroom or like in the library or at soccer practice getting ready. So I make sure that I'm nose breathing the best I can before I start anything. But those are just some of the things I do to prepare, to get ready. Those are things that work for me, the thing I'm trying to I have been consistent with thus far and I've been really happy with it.

Tim: 16:13

Yeah, I really like you. But you brought in like get in the classroom, in the library, like well, like you know, it's it's it's not just applicable the game day, right, not just applicable to sport. It's one of the things that we emphasize so much. And MSP, right, this mental training piece, I think, the mindfulness in particular, like it's, it's about how we kind of are in the world, you know, and we practice it in all these different places. It's just so much easier to then also do it in sport and it really sounds like you have, you know, you've done this iterative process, you've paid close attention to your own experiences, right, but doing this, and you were five years old, have you been like exposed to any sort of like formal mental training, sports psychology as prior to your work with with Keith?

Aidan: 17:04

Yes yeah, and I'm very grateful to say so. Yeah, I went to St John's College High School and I was. That was when I got my first experiences with it and with Matt Smith, who is currently the assistant athletic director there. He, he had a nutrition and health class. So one period of my class he was the athletic trainer, slash director, so he would come up from from the facility the athletic facility to the school to teach a class and everyone was always so excited about that, like, oh, this is great, like this is like not necessarily a free period, because he made it not. So he gave us content and but that that was completely centered around anything from nutrition to we would do nutrition, we would do textbook Tuesday. I'm not going to remember all the days, but like we would do everything from mind, body to health, wellness, well being for this board side, and so most athletes would take that. So he first welcomed me to that. So that would be my first experience with it. I'm trying to remember some of the specific. I can't remember some specific stuff right now, but he would, he would. He would give us a lot of videos on like. I remember specifically one that I'll never forget was he would bring videos in All these very famous, well-known athletes. So like, one of the ones that I first ever remember from my freshman year was like the mama mentality one. And that was where I mean Everyone knows Kobe, everybody knows how Strong willed and his mental fortitude to be one of the best. So bringing in examples like that To our how we play was great very early on. So that was nine years ago, now eight years ago.

Aidan: 18:51

And Then at Georgetown I had a couple friends who I had, one friend, paul Robbock. My freshman year we started meditating before games so we would do a 30-minute Meditation before games. It was called the fall and essentially it was just Not just, but it was. It was rainfall in the background and it would go at different cadences and I we did that for almost 18 games straight. We would set aside 30 minutes before we would walk up to the field to warm up. We would do a 30-minute meditation.

Aidan: 19:24

Sometimes it was hard for me. I would recognize when I'm sitting there. I'm like, oh, I don't know if I can get through this without opening my eyes or Breathing a little heavily or being fully Aware or not thinking about other things and letting thoughts pass, you know, so that was a big one for me. And then the last big one at Georgetown was we, our last two to three years we had a chaplain, tony Miserkowitz, who was made available to us at any point in time. So he would do individual work and teamwork through his meditation center, his meditation practices, and we would do whether it was the COVID year online zooms with whoever wanted to join, get ready for games, or he would come in and do them personally and that was wonderful, got in meditations, silent meditations, just a space to do all that. So yeah, I've been very grateful to have all that and my disposal.

Keith: 20:17

That's so cool. We actually. We know Tony pretty well. He was actually on our podcast a couple seasons ago, really also. Yeah, he's a great guy, oh.

Aidan: 20:25

I love him, I love him so much.

Keith: 20:28

Yeah, well, and I love how you know I it sounds like this has just become a part of who you are, and I know this because I see you in action all the time. But it almost just sounds effortless now the way you integrate Some of these mental practices into your routine and I guess I just want to step back and I mean that's in part why I was so excited to have you on our podcast is because Most athletes don't do that, yeah, and I think it's pretty inspiring and pretty refreshing and and I love it, I love seeing you do this stuff and hearing about it, to see a professional athlete taking, taking the mental game so seriously, not just saying, yes, the mind is important and, yes, we can understand that. But actually I mean talking about your, your rainfall meditation. That is so cool, like what an awesome practice that you guys started doing and and I know there are things from your Georgetown experience that you've brought to Loudoun United this season.

Keith: 21:21

I know one thing that I've seen firsthand that you and I have talked about is Is the practice of huddling up after, after conceding a goal, which I think, at least, has been a pretty helpful practice for this team and it's not surprising to hear all the success you had. You read and I read in the beginning you heard me say that you guys, what a national championship. You had quite a successful run there. So it sounds like the Georgetown experience was pretty, pretty influential in terms of the You've become and are becoming.

Aidan: 21:53

Yeah, big time, big time. Um, I Couldn't imagine not having those four years of development before this. I've know, I've always known I've wanted to be a professional athlete and in this world, like with world soccer at college, soccer is really only here in America, so sometimes you can get derailed by the thinking of them. I'm doing the best possible thing to make it professionally. And a lot of kids still today and it'll be an ongoing question forever is like do I go to college, do I sign professional first? You know, but I wouldn't be who I am today without Georgetown. Yeah, and yeah, I think we did well there. So I try to bring as much as I can, as long as it's wanted, to wherever I go. Some of those practices for me are essential.

Tim: 22:46

So, yeah, Well, that just makes me think, you know, like no elite athlete, probably no athlete Anywhere right, is gonna show up to a competition without warming up. We have that kind of knowledge of our bodies like, oh yeah, I'm not gonna perform well unless I'm. I'm once, I'm more. And I hear you talking about this like Mental warm-up, almost. You know, and I think like, oh, you know, we lean a lot on these analogies between, like, the mental training and the physical training, because they both require dedication, they both require structure and commitment.

Tim: 23:21

I think, yeah, you're, you're in the middle of the game and you, you know like, make a turn and tweak your hamstring. I like you're gonna go over and you're gonna, you're gonna see the trainer, you're gonna stretch it out for a bit and you're gonna get back on the field, like, but what kind of things do we do when we Make a quote-unquote mistake? You know, we get that like that mental strain. You know like, why don't we respond to it with the same kind of attention? You know, and directness that we do these physical things and I just the example of huddling up after a continued a goal sounds exactly like that Like, oh, we got to like, tend to our like mental hamstring here, like let's get it back, let's get it ready. Okay, now I'm ready to get back on the field, or I just have that kind of Respect, I think, for the power of, in the role of the mind in play, like it's. It's very cool to hear you Gonna talk about this.

Aidan: 24:10

Yeah, yeah, I guess specifically to the huddle one. That was a practice that we established at Georgetown. That worked in our favor, and You're exactly right with the mental hamstring anecdote. It's like we just can see that we do that when we can see the goal, or, as I Suggested it to loud and like we could do this when we can see the goal, because it gives us, it gives everybody on the field a space and the very least a space to bring up what they see is wrong. Right, because if you can see the goal, something didn't go our way, so let's give a space to talk about it, figure it out before we just we go back and play again. For me, that worked so well. For us, that worked so well at Georgetown.

Aidan: 25:01

We, keith, I told you one time I nearly got parted as the captain because we were there for about we were in a huddle for about a minute and the ref started blowing his bus like we need to play, like what are you doing? We were all ignoring him. We're like we're still figuring this out, like we need to figure out how we're gonna play the game. We did that at Butler. I'll never forget, away at Butler, my senior year In some of my teammates. We we had to figure some things out and we were all there for it. We stood there, we waited, we figured it out and we're like, boom, let's go and we won the game. And so for me it's Something like that. It's just about giving a space. That's all I wanted to do, that's all I want. And if, if we have that space and no one wants to say anything, no one needs to say anything. Cool, let's just.

Aidan: 25:49

I told you, keith, this too, a lot of it is just eye contact, like if we don't have anything to say. And it's a wonder goal. And you applaud the other player because he scored a howler. He was just a great player on the day and he scored. We all come together like I'm perfectly fine with anything, like alright, we're fine. You look at each other. Guys say we're good, we're all good. Everyone's saying it. Boom, we're right back out. You know, but there are times where it doesn't always go according to plan. There are times when you can see it in a lot of guys You're just tired and so it takes. It takes a whole. I take someone may be guiding it to a leader, to who really believes in that type of thing to lead it as well.

Tim: 26:29

Yeah Well, yeah, that's like talk about Using the word space and I was thinking about that too when you're talking before just like spaciousness in terms of Can can to the field early, like just letting myself listen to music and tap my feet. You know, it's like no rush, you're creating all this space, but, yeah, that's the emotional space too, for this very different kind of reaction. I mean to be able to get together as a team you just conceded a goal and and to not walk away from that being like oh damn it. You know It'd be like wow, that was a really impressive, they did a great job. Okay, cool, let's go out and play. You know like that attitude, how light. You know Like how refreshing to be able to just acknowledge like, wow, that was amazing, good on them. All right, let's get back out there. There's so much I feel like that's gotta be like so much more effective than just being angry about it.

Aidan: 27:18

You know I I would like to think so. Yeah, it doesn't work for everyone and I, along with my teammates, will be on different teams and throughout our careers probably. You know, things happen. So it doesn't work for everyone and it doesn't work for some of my teammates here, and that's perfectly fine. You know, we should all be open to different perspectives. So I think we're managing that right now, figuring out what's best for us still, and it's not like you can figure it out from one game and go from there. It doesn't always happen like that. We're 20-some games into our season and we're still figuring out how we operate. So, yeah, not for everybody.

Keith: 28:09

Well, something that it makes me think about is how important just being able to pause is, just being intentional about your mindset, and I think that is such a deceptively hard thing to do. And you know I applaud your efforts this year, Aiden. It feels like that's something that you've really tried to instill in Loudon is it's okay to slow down a little bit, it's okay to be a little bit more intentional with how we react, how we respond. I imagine that's not an easy thing to do. I mean, you're a first-year pro on a very young team and you know we're using this word space. I imagine it can be hard to feel like you have space in pro sport. Yeah, so I just wonder like how you feel that's going, that adaptation, you know, just sort of bringing this mentality, which I think sounds terrific, what you had at Georgetown and what you were doing and it sounds like Tony was a part of that also what your teammates took upon yourselves, and now trying to bring that into a pro sport environment. That space can be really hard to find.

Aidan: 29:23

Totally yeah, and Jack mentioned this on this podcast with you guys too was how expectations are tied into that too, when he went into his freshman year, and what he said was true. A lot of the especially at Georgetown, here at Loudon, like a lot of us, are coming from places where we were enrolled in bigger roles, generally speaking, for our past teams, and it's not always easy to step into a new place and that not be the case all of a sudden. So there is 100% a mental adjustment there and people handle it differently. I personally, yeah, I am a very passionate person. I do try to be very cognizant of what I say and how I do things, and so it is difficult for me.

Aidan: 30:17

Sometimes it has been difficult for me to come into a place and I'm not the captain anymore, so I have to adjust to that, you know, and there's someone else is occupying that space. So I have to be a little bit more conscious of that, and that's perfectly fine with me. Anytime that I can find the space to give my advice or give my say, I try to be as patient and cognizant of when that is and let it roll from there, but it definitely is difficult at times. I personally feel like I have a lot to say a lot of the time. So that can annoy people totally and I understand that. But I don't always apologize for it because it's all in goodwill and I want to win just as badly as you do. So I want to make sure everything's on the table before we go into this game this season and things go quick. In the end I want it to end the way we would like, yeah.

Tim: 31:24

Yeah, I mean, there's so much mindfulness. I think it was like interwoven and everything you're saying. I know Keith had mentioned before, but you know you have this, this interest or experience with, with Eastern philosophy, and certainly one of the things I was super excited for our interview today to talk to you about was was that? You know, I'm curious, like how you know, how did you get interested in Eastern philosophy? Like how is it a part of your life, you know? Can you speak to? Like how you connect that to you know leadership on a team.

Aidan: 32:00

Yeah, totally, um, I. So I studied philosophy at Georgetown. Um, I wish I could. Yeah, there we are I. I wish I could go back. I was talking to somebody yesterday and I was like in an alternate universe. Perhaps I wish I could go back and be that, that student, and not have all, maybe the athletic obligations, so that I could just have my schoolwork and my content and and fully just relearn all of that again. You know, because there was such a special time and and I wish I could recollect everything I learned, um, but with the Eastern philosophy stuff, yeah, I had a professor named David Lindemann. I'll never forget him. Um, he, he offered a class that allowed us to write about he would give us. He was the main professor that gave us prompts and articles about Eastern philosophy. So that was the first time I kind of saw it in education and that was like perfect for me.

Aidan: 33:05

So, whether it was Buddhism or anything you could think of, I took a special likening to a lot of those teachings and, oh man, like I, I mean I would like to speak to I think that my mind is racing about it right now, but I'm looking at myself realization book right here, um, and I'm looking at some of the stuff that I have from him, like my Zen, buddhism, like Taoist stuff, like I, I'm eternally grateful for that stuff. Um, but yeah, like all that stuff is it's, it's, it's it's your way of life. It's a lot of it talks about being centered and breathing and and focusing on the cell a lot, and and I think it takes that especially in sport is focusing on yourself first, that you can give your full self to something else. Um, but yeah, especially with those professors and those classes is where I had a big awakening towards it and I loved it. That was stuff was great. The history aspect is wonderful too.

Tim: 34:08

So yeah, yeah, that's so cool.

Tim: 34:12

It just made me think of, like this interview with Tick-Nob-Hahn where, you know, I think someone was asking him about like you've written so many books and you've had such a huge impact on the world, you know, like, how did you do that, you know? And his response was essentially like it all comes from just, I got really good at sitting and walking, you know. And it's like this idea of like the root, it's like this well-being piece, it's like everything I'm going to do is going to come from my centeredness, right, and I just build on that right. I think that's so such a key piece of that, that philosophy, that like there's this you know, the best way that we can help the world is like getting ourselves centered to put us in the best possible position to then actually have an impact or do whatever it is we're going to do.

Tim: 35:07

And I think, like in the West, it feels like almost like the reverse, like no, I got to do all this stuff and then I can relax, or then I can, you know, be successful, or then I can be okay. You know, it's like no, no, no, no. It's got to start with our kind of holistic well-being first. And it sounded like even in high school that teacher. It sounds like that was just a big part of his philosophy. You're talking about nutrition, you're talking about, you know, the mental game, but you're also talking about, like, sleep. It sounds like he was, you know, brought in this really holistic perspective which sounds like I really reinforced with this Eastern philosophy in college.

Aidan: 35:39

Yeah, yeah, it was really nice to see all that and writing and to get physical copies of stuff and to read it, rather than it just being presented to you on my board. Yeah, that was, that was all great. I wish I could go back and read. I might just have to ask for the curriculum all over again. All this free time yeah.

Keith: 36:03

I mean, it's just so fascinating to me because one of the big things that we talk about on our podcast a lot is just how do you integrate mindfulness into sport? You know, that's kind of our whole thing, that's what Tim and I and our colleagues, it's what we research, it's what we teach and what's been so great. Getting to know you, aiden, is like you just seem to live and breathe this stuff and you know, I think you're highlighting this and what you're explaining today. And I don't mean to ask you to repeat yourself I hope this isn't the exact same question I've already asked you but it's almost like it's so fascinating to see bringing this mindset into professional sport, where I think historically it couldn't be more opposite. And again, I think there's been a little bit of a softening. I think there's been some movement over the last handful of years where there's maybe some more openness than there's ever been before. But I'm just so curious what your experience has been like, kind of having the values that you have and the experiences that you've had and then coming into the pro sport world, you know where, where.

Keith: 37:15

Again, I know I mentioned earlier this idea of lack of space, but even like the way you guys have to travel the way, you guys have to do so many things that maybe aren't in the name of wellness, right, like, like, I know I mean this, obviously. I know I know your coach very well, who was also a former podcast guest, ryan Ryan Martin and I was asking us because tomorrow you guys have a match at like 10 in the morning, which unfortunately I can't be at because I didn't plan to be available at 10 in the morning. So I'm like what is what's the deal with that? And, and you know his, his comment was like yeah, I mean, sometimes some of the planning that that goes into that isn't always with athlete wellness in mind. You guys just had a game on Saturday night. Now you have a game on Wednesday morning at 10 am. But that's the reality of being a pro athlete. That's on our schedule. We've got to show up, we've got to do this. This is decidedly not a very mindful way to operate.

Keith: 38:15

Yeah, does this make sense what I'm getting at.

Aidan: 38:17

Yes, totally, totally. And I think doing all this, having a passion for being mindful for your work, rather your daily life, how you operate your life, I mean, at least for me, it's because of the challenge I have ahead of me and, as you said, it's scheduled. All this stuff is scheduled. Some of it goes off schedule, but I do all this so that I can be prepared for the next thing and perhaps for road bumps in between those right, and we're not all perfect, Like there's going to be times where things do not go your way, they go the exact opposite way and and they might defeat you even, and you recognize that and you're aware of it, and you're like I lost, like, or I lost something or this, this isn't going my way, but it doesn't always happen to go my way.

Aidan: 39:12

But I think, just with the mental practice and mindfulness it's, if you have that baseline and you're especially passionate about it, sometimes it makes handling things that aren't going our way Not easier, but a little bit more manageable. You know you have the, you have the tools, you have the facilities to manage it, to keep going, without having to go through the process of adjusting in perhaps a negative way, where, like negative mannerisms or negative self talk or communication to others comes out before you can process what's going on and then move on. You know, maybe you can deal with that yourself before it gets pushed on to the situation or other people you know see, I love that.

Keith: 39:59

What a mindful answer, because I was.

Aidan: 40:02

I was like, ah, is he going to say, I want?

Keith: 40:03

to break the system. You're right, it's messed up, keith, like we should get more sleep and you know athlete wellness is more important. But but you're like, no, we just like. I do this so that I can handle these road bumps right Like this, this adjustment to being a professional athlete, you know it's. It's that's why the mental practice is so important is so that I can handle this as as mindfully, as as intentionally, as healthily as possible. I love that. What a great answer, because you're not going to change the system by yourself. Right Like it is, it is what it is, so it's. How do I relate to it most healthily?

Aidan: 40:39

And yeah, yeah, all in mind of still, yeah, still wanting to do your best and all that, and yeah, I mean, again I'll I'll reemphasize the point that it things aren't always going to go your way, like there's been times this year where I've had me personally, like my teammates, my friends, like things don't go your way, whether it's injury or playing time, or flights getting canceled or flights getting rescheduled or back to like a game a day out.

Aidan: 41:13

You know, like it's not always going to be ideal and it's easy for me to say right now I'm very able to be healthy physically, mentally, but yeah, I mean we all want to handle that well. So, and if I can, if I can do so, if I can be a pillar of someone that can, someone can lean on to while they're handling it. Like I like to be in that space as well, just because I grew up in a team setting and a team sport, you know, and if my team's not, I want my team to do well over anything else, you know, and so I want to make sure everybody else is cool too.

Tim: 41:49

So I got to be cool first, like you know, well, yeah, just the frame of like, not if, but when something's going to go wrong. So, like I know, right, because even if we did change the system, like are we trying to do that digs or control so that things would never go wrong, like, well, no, even if we change the system, if, even if it were centered on athlete well being, things would still go wrong. There would still be road bumps, you know, and it's like, yeah, I know that's going to happen. And so, you know, if I kind of carry around this attitude of acceptance, it just makes it easier. And then maybe this does circle back to to kind of a question that I'd asked before about like mindful, or like how you bring this Eastern philosophy of mindfulness into leadership on a team, and it sounds like for you it's a lot about kind of modeling in some ways.

Aidan: 42:42

Yeah, yeah, I've. I've been in a great pull again to be in a leadership role for a long time now. I was a captain of my wrestling team too. So I think, once you're put in a position where, whether you want to or not, there are possibly people looking up to you or reliant upon you, or or you want to provide for other people that can also like trigger these, like in your head like, okay, I want to, yeah, like I want to provide, I want to be as not as stable, I'd say, but as ready as possible. For that, you know, and that, I guess, applies to me a little bit more personally, to on a personal level. But yeah, I, I do. I like to be a leader. I guess I like to lead in any way I can like to help. So I want to help anyway I can. So if that's an leadership role, yeah, there is. There are some model things that go there and I've seen a lot of people to do it in a really great way yeah, it's, it's, it's been cool.

Keith: 43:56

I know what you mean. Like you mentioned this earlier, it's kind of finding finding your role, like trying to be a leader, trying to lead by example, but also recognizing like, okay, I'm not the captain this year, so kind of trying to find the ways that that you can be influential. And you know, from an outsider's point of view, I think you've been very influential on on this team. I know I guess it sounds like your experience is it can be a mixed bag, you know, trying to trying to find what's what's going to appeal to people, what's going to be welcome to people, what's going to be helpful and and I think that's probably true for any anyone who's trying to be a leader on a professional team.

Keith: 44:35

And I know I've said this, I don't know if I've ever said it to you individually, but I find myself saying it all the time. I'm I'm always I'm a communication junkie. You know I I always err on the side of like I'd rather say it than not. I'd rather have it out there as it's just like a truth and we can do with it what we will. And I know sometimes that that can be a tough thing for people.

Aidan: 44:55

That doesn't always make you a ton of friends, at least in my experience yeah, I think I'm the same way and and there are people that it's like let's not talk about it, like it's back to the point. We're talking about the preparation for, say, game times. There are people that want to just play, say, let's just go play, you know, and and I'm not I personally, I, there is time, yeah, I'll go like pick up my friends and I don't really need to do like a whole one-up or mental practice beforehand, mindfulness, and I'm down to just go play. But in this setting professional being a professional game, that doesn't work. I've heard go other ways, so it's it's how you can manage that and you're managing other personalities on the team too, so you have to do what works for everybody yeah, well, I had.

Keith: 45:51

I had one more question for you. I know we're running short on time, but, but there was one thing which is a little bit of a zag, but I think it's related to everything that we're talking about.

Keith: 45:58

But I'm kind of just dying to hear what your answer to this is. I mean, I think anyone who's listening to this episode can hear your, your very like, evenly spoken, very well-spoken guy and very thoughtful and and you, you mentioned this earlier too, but you know you have an intensity to, I think, watch, watching you play, when you take the field, you're, you're an intense guy, and so how, how do you feel like that intensity kind of blends with with your mindfulness? You know, I think you just ooze mindfulness. You, you are mindful. You're one of those guys, clearly. I mean, you put your money where your mouth is and, and Tim and I'd leave these trainings all the time. In fact, we just let a training this past weekend and one of the things that comes up all the time is like you know, if I become more process-focused, is that gonna make me soft? You know, is that, is that gonna make me complacent? How, how do you blend this sort of competitive intensity with, with this worldview that you live?

Aidan: 46:56

yeah, that's a good question. I I don't think I've really paired the like intentionally put word for word like intensity with my mindfulness. So it's interesting to think of right now because sorry to put you on this.

Aidan: 47:13

No, no great, I could do this for hours. I would love to hang out some time. Hey, man, you know this. I think this might be more deep rooted the intent, my, how I see, intensity, how I give it off. I was always influenced to play hard. I've been hearing that since I was a kid. I love my father and he, he wanted me to play hard. He played hard, you know, and so I grew up with that mantra and and I fell in love with it, you know, and I wrestled, and you kind of have to play hard when you wrestle or else you might get hurt. So that's kind of my background with it. But I mean, keith, as you put like on the board for us before every game day, like when our intensity is a little bit higher, we sent I might be oversimplifying this, but it seems that we have better results, you know definitely a correlation, for sure definitely a correlation, right?

Aidan: 48:22

I love, I love. I wish we could talk about your slideshow. But yeah, I think intensity can come out in many different ways and I think I've maybe said this in one of those meetings with you and and I'll go back to what you just said about wanting to say put things out there first, I'm a communicative person as well. I think it's not always the best, we're not perfect, but for me, especially within the game, being loud and vocal in a constructive way like that, that can not necessarily match intensity, that can set an intensity that can set the flow of the game, set the tone, you know. And especially when it gets specific to football and you've heard it countless times when we talk about our press or how we defend, how we attack, like there's different levels, specificities to an intensity there you know.

Aidan: 49:19

So I mean, yeah, when I'm, when I'm getting prepared in mindful, or I'm trying to be as mindful as possible before I step out onto the field, I'm thinking of the ways that I'm gonna communicate that intensity, the ways that I'm gonna show it, whether it's by example or through being a vocal leader in specific parts of the game, you know, and it's all value-based.

Aidan: 49:40

So, like. I value how I play each part of the game, whether it's without the ball, with the ball pressing, keeping them on like and all calls for different things, and so maybe when you're on an all-out attack, it's better than I don't know who knows, maybe it's better to be super quiet if you're a ninja but we're not ninjas out there, so I'm a little loud when I'm going to get the ball back. But yeah, it's completely paired. It's completely paired whether it's self-talk or getting ready to speak with your teammates. You know, I want to be mindful with how I work with them and what they need to hear, how they process it, how they, how I know they should hear it. You know a leader should take that all into account.

Keith: 50:22

Well, what a great answer. I know I put you on the spot. It was a tough question, but I've been dying to ask you that because it's you know, you just ooze mindfulness, but you also ooze intensity. And and, tim, how many times have we answered that question of like? Yeah, but if I, if I pay attention mindfully, isn't gonna make me soft, is it gonna make me complacent, right like I'm gonna lose my competitive edge. It's like here's Aiden Rocha no, no, it will not.

Tim: 50:47

Well, that's something to teach people, lincoln reminds me. It makes me think about you know, kristen Neff, and she's done so much work around self-compassion, but you know one of her. I think her most recent book is called fierce self-compassion, you know, and she talks about like, how, like, like, yeah, I mean, ferocity is just a descriptor, right, that we could apply it to anything we normally think it's so aggressive but like no, you can love with ferocity, you know, you can be compassionate with ferocity.

Tim: 51:13

And I think there really isn't this tension between mindfulness and intensity in the way that I think some people would like. A lot of people assume like, oh no, I'm just gonna be super calm, right, and I'm gonna be like super chill in some place and I'm not gonna care. It's like that doesn't have to be true at all, you know, it's like we can be very intentional with our intensity.

Aidan: 51:35

Yeah, that's a fascinating question. I wish we weren't at what? 15, 15, five minutes now.

Keith: 51:43

That's a great question.

Aidan: 51:45

I love that. I will be pondering that for a little bit.

Keith: 51:47

Well, we can continue at any time. I would love to continue hearing your thoughts on this and I will just say I don't think you're the only person who's pointed out that when the team is talking more, they're playing better. I don't know that everybody's always as willing to be as vocal as you are, to your credit, but I think that is a thing or maybe I'm just confirming my own bias because I believe in that and I think that's true, but I think other people have mentioned that as well. So I think you're on to something.

Aidan: 52:14

Maybe I might be confirming bias as well. Have a debate one day.

Keith: 52:22

Well, thank you so much for making the time. We really appreciate it. I know this, like I said, you have a game early tomorrow morning, so we really appreciate you making the time later today to have this conversation and you are absolutely a fascinating guy. So, again, not to put you on the spot, I usually ask this before we hit record, but I'll just sort of ask it now. See how you answered Anybody who wants to kind of learn more about you or I know you do have some social media, anything that you want to point people in the direction of to learn more about you or follow your career.

Aidan: 52:53

Sure, sure, I guess my social media. I've only have an Instagram account, so it's just Aiden Rocha with two A's at the end, and yeah, you can catch me there. Say hi, I like to meet new people. It's been an honor to meet you, tim. Thank you guys so much for for bringing me on. This has been wonderful. I wish again I could lose for hours, so I'll be tuning in to all the podcasts from now on. I really appreciate you guys doing this.

Keith: 53:23

Thank you, sure well who knew Tim. We're building quite a Georgetown contingent, so we had Aiden's teammate he mentioned earlier. Jack Beer was on our podcast last season and Tony, of course, and so we owe a lot to Georgetown. So thank you for putting out such great athletes so very quickly. Just to do our little wrap up, we just want to give a quick thanks to our producer, taylor Brown, and to our colleague, dr Carol Glass, for all of her support of our podcast behind the scenes and for folks who want to connect with us, the MSP Institute.

Keith: 53:58

We are online at MindfulSportPerformanceorg. We also have a Facebook page and an Instagram page for our Institute. We also have an Instagram page for our podcast and that handle is at Mindful underscore sport underscore podcast and I know Aiden mentioned earlier it'd be great to be able to have access to the exercise that Tim led. Well, we have our YouTube channel, so all the exercises that begin our episodes we do post up on our podcast YouTube channel. So if anyone wants to check that out whether it's Tim's exercise or any of the ones that have begun our podcast, please feel free to check it out there.

Keith: 54:37

It's a great free resource and our book is still out there MindfulSportPerformance enhancement, mental training for athletes and coaches and we always welcome your reviews, your ratings of our book as well as of our podcast. So thanks again to Aiden and thank you Tim, and thanks to everyone who listened and we'll see you next time, thank you.