Mindful Sport Performance Podcast

Ep. 64: The Holistic World Marathon Challenge with Deirdre Keane

• Dr. Keith Kaufman & Dr. Tim Pineau • Season 5 • Episode 4

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In this episode, we welcome Deirdre Keane, a former pediatric critical care nurse practitioner, now a healthcare consultant, who found solace in running after the loss of her father. More than just a runner, Deirdre's story is one of resilience and overcoming adversity, reminding us all of the power of the human spirit. Her passion for running pushed her beyond marathons and into the realm of ultra marathons, ultimately leading her to victory in the World Marathon Challenge.

Deirdre's journey is fraught with challenges, mentally and physically, but her deep-seated faith and philosophy has carried her through. Her approach to life, deeply impacted by her father, has shaped her into the champion she is today. As she navigates the risky terrains of the World Marathon Challenge, we delve into her thoughts on identity, motivations, and the intriguing collection of runners who dare to tackle this daunting challenge.

But the story doesn't end at the finish line. We'll take a step back from the adrenaline rush of the race to address the often overlooked topic of balance in a high-intensity sport like running. Deirdre offers an honest account of her struggle to maintain equilibrium, and the dark reality of depression faced by many retired athletes. Her athletic achievements continue to inspire us, making this episode a testament to the indomitable human spirit. Tune in for a journey of resilience, faith, and balance that will leave you inspired and moved.

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Keith:

Hi and welcome back to the Mindful Sport Performance podcast. I'm Dr Keith Kaufman, I'm Dr Tim Pinau and we are very excited to be joined today by Deirdre Keane. Deirdre is a pediatric critical care nurse practitioner turned healthcare consultant. She found her passion in running when she ran her first marathon in memory of her father after he passed away from cancer. She has now run more than 50 marathons and a handful of ultra marathons. More recently, she competed and won first place female in the World Marathon Challenge.

Keith:

She decided to take on the challenge after suffering with depression while being a frontline worker during the pandemic. She decided to use running as a coping mechanism and push herself to look forward to living again by pursuing her biggest life bucket item seven marathons on the seven continents in seven consecutive days Just wow. So that's the World Marathon Challenge. I assume that's pretty amazing. She did this while fundraising for the Vibrant Emotional Health, a non-profit that provides mental health resources for those who may have difficulty accessing them, and runs the National Suicide Prevention Hotline. While Deirdre reports, she feels like herself once again. The experience and empathy she now has for others going through their own mental health trials will never leave her. So just wow in terms of what you've accomplished and your background and some of the synergy that we have between work that you're doing and what we do. We're just thrilled to have you on our podcast, so thank you so much for making the time to join us today.

Deirdre:

Thank you guys for having me. It's really an honor.

Keith:

Deirdre, you were kind enough to be willing to share just a short practice that you do to help with your mental game, so take it away.

Deirdre:

My faith has always been very important to me. I grew up Irish Catholic, so praying is a form of meditation to me and often when I'm running and doesn't have to be structured prayer, more often than anything it's just me talking to my dad, and who knows if he hears me. But kind of speaking those emotions that I'm having very much alleviates that burden and every now and then I feel like I'm heard, like I'll get a little sign, and it's the beatle-call thing.

Tim:

Yeah, I love that, and so can you share a little bit more about what it might actually look like. So you're out on a run. Is it like I'm going to just take the next five minutes and is it kind of intentional boundary like that? Does it just kind of happen organically? Is it just kind of in silence? Is here running?

Deirdre:

It happens organically, and usually it's when I'm going through a very tough time and I'm looking for answers, internally, realizing I don't have them. I'm like, who can I turn to? Who's here to listen to me? And I always feel like my dad's there. So I'll start speaking to him, and sometimes it'll be during a marathon where I'm absolutely sprinting like a part break hill in the Boston Marathon and like my heart's going to give up, like dad, help me, help me, and I'll get the sense of peace, or I'll feel like his presence is next to me and it just, it's amazing.

Tim:

Yeah, that's super powerful and also, just as your description of it really reminds me of, in some ways kind of a really traditional mindfulness exercise, just sitting, feeling feelings, Exactly Like I'm feeling anxious, just acknowledging what's there.

Deirdre:

You're giving the emotions, words, context, and whether you're having a conversation with someone or it's an internal dialogue, like it just brings them to light and defines them Like. This is how I'm feeling and it's okay to feel that way in this moment.

Tim:

Oh yeah, that acceptance is huge, right? Because if you'd have noticed anxiety, you're like, oh, I can't be anxious right now, I just get more anxious.

Deirdre:

And I think the dialogue helps me at least with talking to my dad, because it's almost like he's telling me it's okay For the internal dialogue. You don't get that validation as much when you speak to parents or anyone's just a mentor to say like it's okay, you're going through a tough time. Give yourself grace.

Keith:

Yeah, I'm glad you used that word I was actually thinking of the word grace as well that it feels like a form of letting go of just. This is a really hard thing that I'm doing and just I have a client who talks about it as white-knuckling all the time when they're pushing. Like I picture you going up Heartbreak Hill, sort of white-knuckling and it's like oh if I can just sort of release and get some comfort in my spiritual connection, that that can be really powerful.

Deirdre:

And it's therapeutic, but it's not always like. Sometimes you're so mad or you're so stressed or like, okay, that didn't help me this time, but it's still a way to understand your feelings and think them through over the card.

Tim:

That's the piece. I feel like that or that I really appreciate a lot about about mindfulness is that it gives a frame where it's like we don't have to define it as whether it worked or not, as like did it make the feeling go away? Because sometimes, I mean, there is a tremendous power in just acknowledging like oh, I'm really scared, I'm really anxious, and then like naming it actually allows us to let it go, but, like you're saying, not always, and then you get stuck and be like oh, but oh no, it's really bad that I have this feeling.

Tim:

Or like, oh, my strategy didn't work. Then we get even tighter and it's like, oh, okay so like this anger is really hanging around today.

Keith:

All right, cool.

Tim:

Like it's like, how do we be comfortable with that? Like that's really challenging.

Deirdre:

It is. It's always a work in progress for me.

Keith:

Like, well, maybe that's a great segue to asking maybe what I'm most curious about. I mean, there's lots of stuff I want to talk to you about, but maybe what I was most curious about is just how did you do this World Marathon Challenge, like, you talk about powerful things coming up for you. What kinds of experiences I just can't even imagine. And obviously you were very successful. Congratulations on your win. That is phenomenal.

Keith:

Thank you, thank you so for all of our listeners, especially perhaps our marathoners, who listened to this podcast like how'd you do it?

Deirdre:

It definitely wasn't an overnight accomplishment. It was two years in the making of like training for this event and years of running in general. So essentially, I heard about it first in 2018, tom Brady posted about it on Instagram because a woman from Boston had won it and I saw that, or my brother sent it to me and I was like that is going in my life bucket list Like someday I want to accomplish that. Life goes on. We get busy with the minutia of day to day and then the pandemic hit and for the first year of pandemic, it was just go, go, go, working, constantly seeing no end in sight, and I was so focused on working and trying to help others, and stress about this meant for my patients, for society as a whole, that I wasn't taking care of myself. I was running, but I wasn't giving myself any mental reprieve from this or giving myself any grace, so I found myself in a very deep hole, to put it lightly, at the start of 2021. I suffered grief before, from loss from my father, from patients, but the overwhelming feeling of depression was nothing I ever felt. It consumed me and I continued to work, although not as focused, and the only other thing I was consistent about was running, just because it's so formulated in my head that it's part of my DLA process. I've been running now for over 10 years marathons that I had to.

Deirdre:

I think it's just constantly trying to find a way to alleviate this. Like we wanted like a quick fix, and unfortunately, when you're going through a tough time, there is no quick fix. It's starting to set up daily goals, but I'm an all or nothing type of gal. So I went into my life bucket list and I was like, what do I wanna pull out? And it was the World Marathon Challenge and getting a dog. And I decided to do both of those on the same day on the same run, like burnings. When I think things through, you know if I thought both of those things through, very well, but that was my ultimate decision and I started working on those things that week.

Deirdre:

I'm very task oriented, like I like completing tasks, trying to figure out bigger picture, get big goal completed. So that was something I could work towards. Did that solve my depression? No. Did it give me something? A light at the end of the tunnel? Absolutely, and between having something to look forward to and a lot of therapy, like I was on the road to better mental health, but it was for sure was a long process, about seven to eight months, so signed up for it. And because of the pandemic, initially with Australia having its borders closed and Omicron, it kept getting delayed and then finally it was delayed again because of the Russia-Ukraine war, the Antarctica Marathons on a Russian research center.

Deirdre:

So, yeah, it was finally pushed back to January of 2023, end of January, beginning of February. So I completed it this year, but it was two years in the making, since I initially decided to go for it in January of 2021.

Keith:

Yeah, I guess it's not often that a marathoner has global catastrophes or global events sort of disrupts.

Tim:

I need to accept the uncut yeah. Wow, that is yeah just amazing.

Keith:

And.

Tim:

I mean, I definitely want to hear more about like what it's like to live in the world, having that as part of your past, just like oh, that's a thing I did. I ran marathons in seven days on seven continents, faster than any other woman on the planet Like that is a I don't know. I'm imagining that is a cool thing to have just in your lived experience, and I'm also betting that there are days go by where you don't think about it at all.

Deirdre:

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for the ladder not to minimize it, because it's one of the best experiences I had in my life and it built a level of confidence I don't think I ever would have had an opportunity to achieve like. I was feeling my lowest, physically and mentally, the end of that week just from sheer exhaustion, and I pushed myself past that and having that experience and knowing that inner resilience is there gives me confidence all areas of my life. But do I wake up every morning and think like haha, world marathon challenge?

Keith:

like you don't start every morning that way, just kissing it in the mirror. It's like you know who you are.

Deirdre:

I'll never have to think of an interesting fact again.

Keith:

Yeah, well, and and I know this is this is I mean, you have to forget, we're sports psychologists, right? So we totally geek out on the nuts and bolts of this, like how did you do that part Right? So I'm just trying to imagine Not only did you run seven marathons in seven days, but the travel that must have been involved, like when did you sleep, when did you eat, right? Like just all these different factors that must have gone into that. And then I picture, like you Just said, you get to the end of that week, like I don't know what order it was in, like what the last couple were, but how, how did you find that resilient? And so what did resilience even look like with that degree of human exertion? I mean, talk about pushing your body to its absolute limits. Like, give us a window into that, if you can. Like how you, how you did that, how you coped with that.

Deirdre:

I Feel like resilience is something that we can look at retro, respectively, like in the moment you're not thinking like wow, being so resilient, I'm pushing through, you're putting one foot in front of the other, you're getting through that moment and then the next moment to the minute, to the hour, and you're pushing through with the focus, and that moment is how I mean. How am I gonna get through it? And then, in hindsight, when many of those moments have passed and you're at the other end of it, like oh, oh, go, like take a step back. That was resilient, but in the time, like I was just focusing one step From the other, one mile after the other, and then it became like this marathon's done, time for the next one.

Deirdre:

Because, if I looked at, there's a delay with our flight. Made a chartered plane that took us to all the continents, so that helped with all the travel logistics and we, we slept on the plane, but there was a delay after the second marathon getting this plane taking us from South Africa to Dubai by a day, so we to do the last five marathons and 40s and the last two within 24 hours. Oh, my gosh, you can't look if you think about running five marathons in 40s On other ends of the world. It's just too overwhelming. You have to think like, okay, that's the big accomplishment, but right now I'm gonna focus down what the next step is.

Tim:

Oh, yeah, I mean, which is so, so mindful? Right, it's like I can. Just I have to be right here right now. If I zoom out too far, I'm like I it's too over, it's too much. Yeah, I can't focus on the thing that is actually helpful to me, which is this step right now.

Tim:

I mean that's the only place we have choice, right? So, yeah, that's so. That's so powerful though I'm imagining too. I mean, you talked about this, this two-year preparation and and you've talked and you talked openly about it today and I've read other interviews that you've done and you've talked openly about about Not just the struggle with depression that you're talking about, but like also in general, like the way that running has been a form of therapy for you in addition to traditional therapy.

Tim:

Like I mean, could you speak to the kind of holistic Training or preparation I don't know what the right word might be that you felt like contributed to the ability in those moments? I'm just gonna be here with this step. Yeah, because it really does sound like you were even in your choices of, like I'm gonna do the world marathon challenge, I'm gonna get a dog. You know, like I hear in that like a very holistic approach. I gotta, I gotta. I need affection and love in my life and I need something to look forward to. I need something to physically challenge myself. I mean, I Interpreted it as you kind of formulating this plan for my emotional and physical wellness, and so I immediately think like, oh, she's a really holistic thinker. I'm so curious to get your, your thoughts on that. I.

Deirdre:

Think it has to do a bit with perspective and my background. I Work with life and death so regularly doing pediatric critical care that I don't always look at the bigger picture right. It always looks like, well, I'm so privileged and so fortunate. And even sometimes when you apply that mythology, it doesn't work. In that moment You're still allowed to feel sad and feel grief like everyone else. But when I take a step back and think like what do I want to accomplish? And like how fortunate am I to have my health and to be able to go on these adventures, it makes me more motivated to make the most of my life and live for the others. That can't as cheesy as that sounds, and I also think I got that perspective from my father. He loved him life so much and I know when he looks back, look back at his life Like there was no loss of time. He accomplished as much as he could in his 50 years. And I like to think like if I died tomorrow, overall I'd be satisfied with how I live my life.

Tim:

Yeah, I Remember when I first heard that in Buddhism they talk about the, the four heavenly messengers which are birth, aging, illness and death, and I remember learning at the first time being like Three of those things are bad and like how are the heavenly messengers death in particular? But yeah, there is something about having to meet the starkness of that reality and to recognize the kind of clarity it can bring To our purpose, our own priorities.

Tim:

The way that it can kind of like push us into seeing a bigger picture, I think, is it has been profoundly helpful to me personally dealing with my own kind of grief and loss, and I Should have said this right, I wish I had said this earlier I'm sorry about your father. I know it's been a while, but I'm still so sorry about the loss.

Deirdre:

Thank you. Fortunate and perspective. Fortunate to have had a father that's left such a mark that he's been gone over over 20 years, but I I still think about him regularly and I live my life to honor him.

Tim:

Yeah.

Tim:

I mean that sense of connection right To something bigger than ourselves. You know, I think that's such an important component. Some people find that in their faith and spirituality, right. I think there are certainly other, you know, secular, ways for people to find that too. But time and again I see that as such an important part of people's mental models when they talk about, like really successful athletes, when they talk about their training and I've seen it in myself in terms of where I derive kind of a sense of purpose or satisfaction. I, you know it's that.

Deirdre:

I don't know that really expansive perspective has been very helpful to me and doesn't necessarily have to be spirituality or religion, it's just looking outside of yourself. Yeah, no matter what way we look at it, our actions impact people around us and some people view like next life versus how my impacting society today.

Tim:

Well, and I well, I'm suddenly self-conscious. I've asked a bunch of questions in a row, but I'm gonna ask this last question anyway because it feels connected and I was really curious. I read an interview in Runners World. You were talking about the impact that your parents had on you but and you mentioned that they were both immigrants from Ireland and I know you have spent some time living in Ireland and yeah, I was. I don't know. I found myself really curious about how you think your identity as the child of immigrants like impacts this perspective we're talking about, or your experience as a runner.

Deirdre:

Yeah, I think I feel very fortunate to have that background because it is a diverse way of thinking, first of all, appreciating everything that your parents did for you and coming to this country. And then also I grew up in the Bronx, which is very diverse in itself, and because my parents were immigrants, I appreciated everyone else's story. So, as I had my own personal successes, I always know that I am fortunate that I had the parents that loved me so much, that made it possible, and that my dad gifted me running, this love of running, which, ironically, I didn't love to do. Any of this loving it's only something I found after he passed away. And your parents impact everything you do to a certain degree, whether you love or hate something, and it's not because they necessarily loved or hated with the opposite, but there's usually some type of connection, yeah well, tim.

Keith:

No, I'm glad you asked a bunch of questions. They were all good questions and things I was curious about too. So nothing to worry about there, no need to be self-conscious. I was wondering. I guess I think it's related to what you're talking about, but maybe it's a slight veering into a different territory.

Keith:

But just hearing you talk and your background and your motivations, like why you do what you do, there's so much depth to that it sounds like and not that other athletes aren't deep, but a lot of times I mean I don't think you've mentioned winning yet I wanted to be great, I wanted to win. I did this because I thought I could win and I wanted to get that trophy. You haven't said that and I think that's kind of cool that you haven't said that. Do you feel that folks who do these kinds of events, like this World Marathon event, are kind of like you in this way? Or do you find that a lot of other people kind of have mixed motives, like I just imagine not everyone can do this. This is a pretty unbelievable athletic feat that you've done and, of course, won. But, like, do you feel different than a lot of your competitors? Do you feel like a kinship with a lot of the other folks Like how would you compare them with mindsets?

Deirdre:

The World Marathon Challenge, in my opinion, attracts a different type of runner than the average race Because it can bring with it so many risks for injury. Like a lot of professional runners won't do that. Seven marathons, seven days like, as cool as it is, it's not worth their livelihood if that's a career. So we only had one male elite runner and no professional female runners. But what I noticed is that I was a bunch of highly motivated people and also with varied backgrounds. Like majorities of them had families and very successful careers. So I was constantly thinking I have a career too, but I don't have a family. How on earth are you juggling all three of them? And most of them had an interesting story that brought them to this moment.

Deirdre:

Majority of people were fundraising, whether it was for a loved one who passed away, who was ill, or a cause. It was very important to them if you were mental health. So it wasn't the typical runner where I've noticed to what you were saying, keith, like you do see that mentality of like winning, I wanna either beat others or beat myself. Like I want a personal basic. That's why I'm here to constantly improve myself. I think we were there primarily all for adventure and when things went awry because you think of me much neurotic people for example, the plane being a day late or like, oh, wow, that's kind of sucky though you have to run five minutes on some 40s, but okay, no, like we signed up to this crazy experience knowing that it was gonna be a logistical nightmare. Things are gonna come up and we just have to accept they're outside of our control and just tow the start line every day. It was twice in a day.

Tim:

All right, it's like we're all high achieving and very accepting.

Deirdre:

Yeah, it was an unusual bunch.

Keith:

Well, and what a refreshing in terms of sort of elite competitive sport, having the attitude of we're there for the adventure of it and I can see how this kind of event lends itself to that right, and you make a good point about the risks that are involved with it and why that might be a deterrent to certain professional athletes. But like you just I mean sports psychologists stand on their heads and try to get athletes to like, ah, just go out there and like have it be an adventure, don't worry so much about wins and losses. And it's like here you get this self-selected group of people who that's what they're there for. It just sounds so cool.

Deirdre:

It was especially towards the end of the week when we were all really feeling the pain and exertion. There was still a level of like this is so freaking cool or. We're gonna remember this forever and we're gonna be looking back at this exact moment. We iterated that many times and remember how bad we felt, but also how amazing it was to go to Brazil in the morning and run a marathon and finish our seventh marathon that night in Miami for our last continent. But they were very special. I'm very lucky to still have them in my life.

Keith:

Well, I gotta ask because a window into my life. One of my favorite things to do is ask favorites questions oh, what's your favorite? And my wife always says I don't do favorites, so I get shot down all the time. So I'm gonna take a stab at this.

Tim:

I'm pretty powerful.

Keith:

Yes, yes, I'm gonna take a stab at this and say, of these seven marathons that you ran, what was your favorite? What was your favorite place to do it?

Deirdre:

It was. Everyone was special for different reasons. Antarctica was cool because you're in Antarctica. It's a continent that most people will never go to, I think. Probably Australia was a favorite for me because I thought it was going to be so much worse than it was when we started running. It was 95 degrees Fahrenheit. I don't know when you started, when we started and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to die. I'm like this is marathon number three. We have four more marathons. I'm in health care. I know how dehydration works. I'm going to become hypotremic from over drinking water. Anyway, I went down this path of. This is not going to go great, but surprisingly I felt much better than I thought and I finished strong and that gave me confidence for the next few days as things started to deteriorate.

Keith:

Wow, I mean, that's a whole other element. I know I brought up the travel piece, but how do you even know what it closed to bring, going from Antarctica to 95 degree Australia? Oh my gosh.

Deirdre:

I think I took like six months, maybe even a year, preparing my packing list Because Antarctica was negative 25 degrees Fahrenheit. Oh my gosh.

Keith:

How do you run in that?

Deirdre:

How is that possible? So the trick is you obviously want to be warm and also you don't get frostbite, but if you're overdressed and you overheat and start sweating, that sweat will immediately freeze and you will also become hypotremic. So I got a lot of coaching from previous people who had run the World Marathon Challenge and what to wear and I brought layers and the minute I felt myself sweating I started delayering appropriately.

Keith:

Wow, that's like try not to sweat during the marathon. Let's talk about a unique mental challenge there Like wow.

Deirdre:

And also try not to dehydrate, like a funny trick I learned for that one was we flew in on a Lushan aircraft, which is a cargo plane that was converted to a passenger plane Because not all planes can land on Antarctica, and someone told me before you get off the plane, have them fill your camel pack with boiling water, because I'd gatorade powder and that way it won't freeze as you're running, because everyone else have camel packs to normal water and it froze because it was so cold. The mind was boiling and I kept drinking through the tube and I kept it going. So a lot of people didn't drink because it's cold. I don't want to be drinking cold liquids, but I constantly kept hydrating with warm water that cooled down throughout the race.

Tim:

Wow, wow, and it's just like the sense of community you're talking about, like getting help from people who have done this before and this that I don't know. That's such a lovely component, yeah, and it feels out of place in a way In this hyper-competitive world of sport that we're so used to. But I think, yeah, when you're doing an event where it is an accomplishment just to finish, it's like the wedding is totally separate, like let's just finish this together, like that's what an amazing spirit to bring to.

Deirdre:

And the race director definitely like he steps that culture and I think it's done so well because of that, Every runner who crosses the finish line gets a cross tape, Because they deserve it.

Keith:

Yeah well, that's the least they can do.

Deirdre:

It's the little things for your psyche, though, right, and like the effort of just having someone there to make sure the tapes there, that they all get their photos and their moment to shine, because this is a massive accomplishment, no matter how long or how little time it took. You is amazing. You're like I got to cross tape today, wow.

Tim:

Like that, I like that, and that feels holistic too. That it's like it is supported not just by the athletes but by the race director, right by the whole culture of this event.

Deirdre:

Right.

Deirdre:

And we talk about it, yeah and he did everything to make it possible Because as we were truncated with time towards the end of the week, he got less strict about. For some of the runners that took maybe six, seven hours, because ideally you'd have up to seven hours. We no longer had that luxury. We would land, say, in Brazil. We were in Porta Lisa Airport and I saw people running around while we were waiting for baggage and the race director was like start your watches now. If you get 26.2 miles done anywhere on this continent, it will count for you having completed. Wow. So you just thought we were running all the time. And then when we went back to the airport and we were waiting, someone was trying to squeeze in their last two miles and they got it done.

Keith:

Wow, talk about running around trying to grab baggage. I can only imagine it's like You're running, wow. Well, so I know we've sort of danced around this. I'm just so curious, as you're getting ready to do this, I can only imagine what your physical training routine looks like. Did you do any formal mental prep? Was there anything? Because I think what we're talking about are all of these really unique challenges that go into doing an event like this, and so I guess I'm curious did you see a need to, or did you do any sort of formal practices to try to prepare yourself for those kinds of rigors, or was that something that was more informal, just as part of a routine you were otherwise doing?

Deirdre:

That was more informal and also trial by error. It's like a two weeks, as you can imagine. Two weeks, two years, as you can imagine. I got burnt out multiple times. And then when you burn out and you're like I don't want to run for a while, it's understanding that you need to give yourself some grace, that a week off is not going to undo all this training you've been doing and actually will serve you to a higher degree and a better purpose.

Deirdre:

And that only came at a time you just realized second or third time after you're burned out, like, OK, I need to go easier on myself. I have a lot on my plate right now. If I take a few days off, it's not going to hurt me.

Tim:

Yeah, that feels and that comes up so often for athletes Like how to actually build in and prioritize rest and not think of it as like time off of the thing I should be doing. But in fact, no, rest is part of your training. It's a new training. But yeah, there's so much of that resistance of like oh, I'm not doing enough or I'm not a day off, I should be at least going on an easy run, Like no, your body really needs time to completely rest.

Deirdre:

But like and I can say and my coach, if she was listening to this, would be like you days off. I'm not great with days off, which leads to the burnout out, but when I do hit that time, that moment where I'm like, I'm so overwhelmed, I take a few days off and it's unfortunate for me that it takes me getting to that point. I definitely need to improve on that. But at least I found a way where I wasn't berating myself and giving myself negative talk for needing time off Because that took time to get there.

Tim:

Do you find there's more flexibility with yourself, like in terms of the runs, the training runs themselves, like maybe there's a day where you have scheduled like I'm supposed to do sprints today or so you know it's like a more interval type training, like I'm just not feeling it Today can be just a long, long run. That's totally fine. You feel like gentle and flexible there.

Deirdre:

And I think that comes with experience, like, for instance, I have a 100 kilometer ultra next Saturday in Switzerland and the Alps and I am not trained for that, as I should have. Like work I'm now. I went into health care, consulting and traveling. It's just I have not had the time. But that's OK, I'm going to give it a shot. I've never had a DNF. I'm hoping I don't have a DNF which is do not finish, in case listeners don't know what that is. But if I get one, I don't think it'll be the end of the world, which is the new realization. Again, it hasn't happened yet and I'm sure I'll be very upset if and when it does. But also having that understanding and that grace, at least beforehand, be like that is a possibility and you will live. It's not the end of your running career. That's something that took time, yeah.

Tim:

Yeah right to make space for those, I mean what we initially fearfully call as failures, the natural part of being in an uncontrollable and just because we, how can anyone? This is what bothers my mind about the Olympics. Like how can you say four years from now, on this day, at this time, you need to be sure that you are in absolute peak condition mentally and physically, like no one can control all of the factors that would lead to four years from now, the specific time I'll be able to do this. One specific skill, you know we have to make space for the possible DNF, you know, and it's like what? How do we cope with it, do we? Is that just the end of our running career? Do we stop running?

Keith:

after that.

Tim:

No, of course not. So like, how do we make peace with that? Not even just make peace with it? How do we Not like trying to make it happen, but like welcome it if it does?

Deirdre:

Yeah, and see like okay. What's the learning opportunity here? If any and sometimes there's not something I to realize. In life there's not always learning opportunity from every mishap, and that's okay. Life is not meant to be perfect.

Keith:

Yeah, well, something, something that we've seen in doing this podcast for a little while, as we've had the privilege of interviewing some retired professional athletes who have pretty consistently talked about experiencing depression after they retired Because there was a decided lack of balance in their lives, and they spoke very candidly about that. It's like no, I did this one thing for so long, and when I stopped doing this thing, I didn't know who I was and and how jarring that can be. And and something that's so interesting about what you're saying is I know you talked about your own journey with depression and part of what inspired you to do this. It's like now you're saying, okay, I've got this hundred k Race in Switzerland next week, but I had to prioritize work Because, yes, you're, you're an elite athlete, yes, running is incredibly important to you, but you're a lot of things, you're not just a runner, and sometimes that means we have to shift our priorities.

Keith:

Sometimes that means I'm not gonna, you know, get to this race in tip-top shape and I have, like you, keep using this word grace, which I think is such a wonderful word. You know it's. It's, I think, a lesson you kind of learn Because of or through depression, in a way right. It's like you need to keep a healthy balance in your life To be able to sustain this, I mean. Otherwise, you just keep burning out, like you said.

Deirdre:

Yeah, that's actually very insightful. I don't think I ever thought of my depression, my experience with depression, enlightening me in that way. But I think you're right. It was from the burnout from working too much. I'm kind of like I'm also trying to run so much my free time. I realize there's so much more to life. I don't need to accomplish everything on your list and the true joy you get from life is living a holistic life, and burning is part of my identity. But bringing in itself will not bring me joy every day.

Keith:

I Love that.

Deirdre:

Well sort of.

Keith:

I'll sort of get you out of here on this. I know you've been very generous with your time. We really appreciate all this and you sort of partially answered my question. I was gonna say well, after having done this, this world marathon challenge like what's next sounds like it's it's hard to probably just sign up for the neighborhood neighborhood turkey trot right. Going to Switzerland. And so what? What is on your competitive horizon here?

Deirdre:

Yeah, so I'm more of a marathon gal, but, um, my point, my boyfriend loves ultra marathon, so he's the one that convinced me to do Tiger, which the one, and the UTMB race in Switzerland, and then next year he wants me to lead bill, which is a hundred miles. So we'll see how that goes and if they go well, I might consider doing the world marathon challenge again in 2025.

Keith:

How often do they do it? Do they do it every couple years or every year? It's every two years, okay.

Deirdre:

But I'm gonna see how life goes, because it was an incredible experience. I'm so happy I was able to dedicate so much time to it. But you can't continue doing that for the rest of your life. Like you need to reorient new goals, so they mean not be running. I Hopefully I'll have a family and I'll settle down and I want to pursue my new profession out and consulting and see if I even like it. I'm gonna do something else. There's so many different facets, facets of life and you to explore.

Tim:

Yeah, just like the, the nuance and what you were saying before and recognizing that like running, running sort of porn, part of my identity. But it's not that running in and of itself makes me happy, because if my life is totally out of balance, if I'm feeling burnt out, well running is miserable. Right, it's like running, is this like really important ingredient for happiness in my life? But it has to be with the other ingredients to, otherwise it doesn't actually make the cake like it has to all.

Deirdre:

Be a very well-praised him. Doesn't make the cake otherwise.

Keith:

Well, thank you again for for all the time you've given us and you know, certainly I imagine lots of folks are aware of you and probably if they weren't before and they listen to this, they probably want to learn more about you. So, anything that you can suggest, any directions to point folks in, either social media or Other interviews you've done, places where people can learn more about you.

Deirdre:

Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram, which is my first name, deirdre, and my last name, keen Deirdre, I'm keen or you can listen to my alley on the run podcast. She is an amazing influencer and just an incredible person. We actually Became friends initially. I was interviewed on humans of New York just how she found me. We've just continued the friendship since and she also did a very detailed hour and a half interview about all the minutia of the World Marathon challenge. So if you're curious about the training, what I ate, all the nitty gritty details, stay tuned to that.

Keith:

Awesome. I will check that out. I have a lot of questions about that stuff for sure. Well, thank, yes, we would. We would strongly encourage folks to check it out. It's it's, pretty, pretty impressive what you've been able to do, and good luck with your new career. It sounds very exciting as well. I know we didn't get to talk about that as much with the consulting that you're doing, but it sounds very cool.

Deirdre:

Thanks, folks. It's such a pleasure to meet you both. Thank you.

Keith:

And for folks who want to connect with us, with the MSP Institute, we have a website, wwwmindfulsportperformanceorg. You can also find our social media. We have a Facebook page and an Instagram page. We also have an Instagram page for our podcast, which is at mindful underscore sport underscore podcast, and we have our YouTube channel where we add the different exercises that our guests lead with us. So, dear with your blessing, we would love to add the little, the little piece that we did at the beginning with you and We've got this wonderful free library now of all these wonderful guests from around the world who have contributed their teachings and so strongly, strongly encourage you to check that out on YouTube and me, dr Keith Kaufman.

Keith:

I am on social media as well, on both Twitter and Instagram.

Keith:

My handle is at mindful sport doc.

Keith:

And certainly you can still check out our book, mindful sport performance enhancement mental training for athletes and coaches, if you're interested in learning more about Tim and my work with with mindfulness and sport and our wonderful colleague, dr Carol Klax and actually that's a great opportunity to just thank Carol for all of her support for the podcast and our producer, taylor Brown, for for everything he does for us.

Keith:

And, lastly, just want to extend the invitation that we are starting something new this season where, if you are interested in supporting our podcast behind the scenes, we have a page where you can sponsor us on our bus sprout feed, which is where we house our podcast. Bus sprout is spelled BUZZ SPR? Out, and if you go to bus sprout calm and you search our podcast, you can find our homepage. And if you Are interested in supporting us and and helping us to to continue to offer this show, we would be very grateful and appreciative of that. So so, thank you, thank you, so, thank you. So thank you again to dear Dr for joining us, thank you to everyone who listens and we'll. We'll see you next time.

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Dr. Keith Kaufman

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Dr. Tim Pineau

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